Video - Twin Galaxies & Tetris Concept.

Thread in 'Discussion' started by boblaze, 3 Dec 2013.


Do you think video should be required for NES Tetris scores?

  1. Yes - Everyone's high score should be verified.

    4 vote(s)
  2. Yes - A certain benchmark, such as 900k, should be used.

    9 vote(s)
  3. No.

    8 vote(s)
  4. Don't worry about it, Twin Galaxies will be back and better than ever...

    0 vote(s)
  1. So, in other words, all serious NES Tetris players back the idea of at least having 850-900k recognition video taped and all those that have nothing to do with NES Tetris are against it.

    People talk about alienating others by recording scores, what you are really doing is alienating people that have actually achieved something quite impressive by simply allowing anyone with a third grade level of MS Paint to also "achieve". Yes, this seems quite a bit better than Twin Galaxies.

    Looks like NES Tetris still needs a definitive home for the future. Trey, are you there??
  2. Muf


    Was that really necessary, boblaze? Frankly, I found your post unnecessarily harsh and polarising. For one, the poll is currently polling pro-video by 1/3rd (if you add up both "yes" options vs the one "no" option).

    Also, in the current format of TC, anyone can maintain their own leaderboards with whatever rules they want. Kitaru just happens to be the person who made the NES leaderboards (because none of y'all were here when he started tracking NES scores among TC members), and he chose the current rules because it's how most of the other leaderboards work on TC and, again - he was the only one seriously playing out of a handful of casual NES players. It doesn't really make sense to go demanding videos when it's just a bunch of friends comparing their dickscores. You're free to make a "strict" or "official" NES leaderboard that only contains verified scores (with blackjack and hookers). No need to go out and start a whole new site just for that.

    But really, I think the journey is just as important as the destination. If someone gets interested in NES tetris, posts a few scores, gets a few strategy tips, they might feel an affection towards the community and stick around longer. Eventually, they get better and more serious about it, and invest in recording equipment so they can catch that breakthrough on video.

    If you demand video proof right at the doorstep, there is no nursing new community members into becoming a better player. If you wanted to post your first 100k, would you feel video proof was necessary? Wouldn't you feel turned off by stupid requirements and decide not to post at all? In fact, with no friendly competition among other low-level players, or encouragement from the big guys, they might not feel like ever improving past a casual level.
  3. Well I voted for the benchmark and commented that I liked Ben's idea. So your argument about making people at 100k disinterested holds no water.

    Yes, the poll is polling pro video, I merely pointing out that the actual NES Tetris community is pretty much 100%

    The goal should be to have an unquestionable 850-900k list of scores that will be carried along with the CTWC.
  4. Or, to put it a slightly less righteous and inflammatory way, all the people who have been on TC for 4+ years are fine with not having video recognition (but don't play NES because historically it's not a game the community has really cared for all that much), whilst the newer NES people who aren't as acquainted with our leaderboard system and are more used to TG would prefer video recordings. Which is logical. We have our way and how we've always done things, and a lot of you guys are relatively new to that. It's got nothing to do with skill at any individual game.

    Honestly, I don't know shit about NES max-outs and things, I only know TGM scores, but I would bet serious money that everyone in the top 10-20 or so on the TGM or TAP leaderboards is legit. Because those players have made videos, because they have been to meets, because they've generally been part of the community for a while and we've seen them develop. I don't need them to post a video of their exact record run for me to believe it - if there are any shenanigans then the community will pick up on it and ask questions if necessary (it's not like the leaderboards are getting dozens of posts a day and it's hard to keep tabs and verify them all).

    Top scores will only ever be by top players, and top players will usually have been active for a while and typically have plenty of proof to verify they're as good as they are. Anyone who would post a TAP Gm score that would be accepted, for example, would already have to be at least good enough to seem reasonably capable of doing so - which is pretty fucking good and top 20 already. If you're going to get uppity on "serious NES players" vs other people I think it says something about the TC community vs the NES community that you apparently don't trust the top NES players to only post genuine scores, whilst for TC we do.

    It's an innocent until we have reason to suspect they're guilty system, and it seems to have worked pretty well for the 7 years or so I've been here.

    I feel like you misunderstand how things work. If some no-name with no background magically jumped to a top score on the leaderboards, it's not like we'd just blindly accept it without proof. But if Kitaru posts a new personal best we're not going to refuse to accept it if he didn't happen to capture it on video. That's a fucking retarded way to operate. All you end up doing is creating the kind of dumb shit Twin Galaxies has always had where tons of so-called "official" world records are known by anyone in the relevant community to be complete bullshit and not the real record (Triforce's "first" Tetris DS max-out, to just give a relevant example of one I know was bullshit).

    These leaderboards are always going to have an element of doubt and inaccuracy to them (what if there are people out there who have beaten you but not posted your score, so you say you're Xth best in the world when you're actually not?), but fundamentally here they're for fun and interest. There's no money on the line, no serious reputation at stake. And someone claiming to have equalled your achievement shouldn't really diminish the effort and value you hold in achieving it, unless you really are the world #1.

    And I'm pretty sure that if 20 people have maxed out a game, then if you don't enforce videos you'll probably have 20 max-outs on the leaderboard. *Maybe* you'll get one random guy who photoshops a fake score but I really don't see it happening that much. But for the sake of argument let's say you have 21 max-outs.

    Then if you do enforce videos, because of people who can't be bothered recording or by chance didn't get their best run on video, you'd have what, maybe 10 max-outs? 15 at best? Which is actually the more reliable and accurate scoreboard? Are you actually trying to achieve a sensible representation of skill for the community with the scoreboard, or are you just doing it for a personal ego-trip?

    And tbh if you enforce video records you can still get people who claim to do it but that they happened to not be recording at the time (and can post a blurry photo as the best proof they can offer), and the community will still have the exact same split on whether people choose to believe it or not. Cheaters can still claim scores and have people potentially believe them, even if they don't make the official records list. The only people you properly inconvenience are the people who *did* have legit scores that they can't get on the list because they've not spent the time (and often money) fucking around to get a recording setup on their PC/console or weren't recording at the time. And even when you do require videos, cheaters can always TAS or otherwise doctor things - a video might be more difficult to fake but it's no more concrete evidence than a picture is.
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2013
  5. haha, wow. why are any of you who don't play nes tetris even in this discussion? this matter has nothing to do with you. yes, you don't think recording is necessary, but were we talking about tgm, tf, etc.? no. so, please, stop.

    anyways, tg was the official way to get your nes tetris scores verified. it is dead now so all boblaze is suggesting is a way to make it more legit here. and from the poll, the majority or all who disagreed with it are the ones who don't even play it. and i don't blame you if that was never the standard thing to do with whatever tetris game you play. but obviously, in nes tetris, it is.

    also, you probably have no idea how important a max-out is for people actively going for it, yet you come here posting about shit you don't even truly understand. the veteran players know recording your high score attempts is pretty much standard, and any of the newcomers who are actively going for it aren't doing this for fun. they want this achievement more badly than you think, and i'm sure 100% that they want their fellow nes tetris players to see their first max-out game.

    so, pretty much the consensus is that we should have video proof for scores of 850-900k+. this makes sense because if you're scoring in that range, you're obviously going for a max-out and who in their right mind wouldn't want to record their first max-out game?
  6. I'd like to clarify my own stance, which may have seemed to swung back and forth, but really has not changed.

    I have always said that if a highly skilled player tells me that they maxed out (or scored 832k or whatever), I would accept that and not question them. I would never lie about something like that, and as serious as people have to be at NES Tetris to get a really high score, I assume that my peers wouldn't lie about it, either.

    But I have also recently said video proof should be required from a competitive stand-point. It is really hard to play your best at a tournament. Everyone knows this. But it is also hard to play your best in front of a camera for the same reason: you are trying to prove to the world how good you are. Doing something in the spotlight is not nearly as easy as doing something in private. That's why I couldn't make it big in the porn industry.

    So, I am not doubting anyone's scores. I believe them. (Well, if Snorks McDoodle signs on tomorrow and says he maxed out ten times but has no proof and won't bother to play again, I won't believe him!) But I don't think you did what *I* did, unless you did it on video. It is *harder* to do on video. I believe it to be.

    And I think the heart of this discussion is the never-ending competition of the NES leaderboard.

    So think of it this way: NFL kickers often kick in field goals of 60+ yards in practice. They are nice kicks. They make the kickers feel good. But it didn't happen in competition.
  7. Haha, really? Maybe because this board has existed and worked fine for many more years than you might have even known about it? Maybe because you're all walking into a community and disregarding the opinions of people who have been here forever? If it's that important, you can start another leaderboard and it's a non issue. We have a member who has taken that initiative. And you can too! You can even actively ignore all non verified scores for your own purposes. It's all okay!
    Me personally? You're right, I don't get it for reasons explained at the very bottom of the post. But do you really think this is true for everyone here? Members of this community have been trying for things like TAP/TGM3 classic GM for years. There are more verified NES Tetris maxouts on our boards than TGM3 GMs IN THE WORLD! I'm not trying to say it's harder because far fewer people play TGM games, but do you really think we don't "get" things like this just because we don't play NES Tetris as much?

    If you think we have a history of blindly accepting scores, you're wrong. Read a little of this thread. And there even was a video in that case! I mean, yeah, there could be rules like, "We must also see your hands playing.", and "We must see you insert your authentic Tetris cartridge into the console before your session." but I think that would cause more legitimate scores to be turned away than fakes.

    Knowing things about 6502 assembly I know, any one of you currently competing could fake a maxout video on an actual NES in a way no one would bat an eyelash at. Maybe the 6502 knowledge is what makes it a large enough barrier of entry as opposed to doctoring a photo? I'm not sure you'll deter or detect many fakes with either method, or even if you'll avoid more with video required than you would with photo required.

    If a person fakes a thing, they don't get much out of it. They can't say they're the first one who has done it, nor the fastest. (Probably, anyway, since the ways I can think of to undetectably fake a video at least still requires a fair amount of skill at the game, and if they were good enough to make a fake maxout faster than current best, they could just have the current best legit.) A fake certainly doesn't (or shouldn't) ruin the personal challenge. And if your rival in the community fakes something, well shame on them, really.

    Maybe I'm weird, but I'd keep playing TGM3 even if someone else become the first western classic GM first (fake or not). I still try for a Tetris DX maxout, even though I believe (without proof!) at least one poster here has done that.
  8. OK whoa whoa whoa guys, slooooow down.

    Unfortunately I don't have time to do a fully considered post. I should already be asleep. So, it may be haphazard or disjointed. I apologize.

    SuPa, I fully understand where you're coming. However, I'd like to point out that involvement (or lack thereof) with NES does not affect the logical grounding of statements made. Also, bear in mind that this is just platform for discussion. People aren't trying to get a majority to "vote in" or "vote down" verification, and certainly everyone is entitled to voice their opinion one way or the other.

    As a matter of record, I filed my vote in the "No" bucket. At time of voting, I felt that Ben and Muf had pretty much laid out everything I would have wanted to say. I don't necessarily think there should be hard and fast requirements across the board, -- Ben's ballpark ranges generally fit my sentiment, but I'm also used to the methods applied to the rest of the site -- and the ability to have greyed/unnumbered/marked/omitted entries based on proof level filters configurable to satisfy either view is perfectly doable.

    Also, I don't want to derail too much or get bogged down in the philosophical/theoretical, but it is true that video or (perhaps, with determination) witnessed performances are also potentially susceptible to attack. Of course, we can only operate within reason (Vulcan mind meld should be the gold standard!), and peer reviewable video should serve as a sufficiently strong level of proof.
  9. It's a discussion regarding the rules of a leaderboard thread on TC. Which makes it relevant to my interests because a) I'm a member of TC and have been for a while, b) it seems odd to destroy consistency across the scores threads just because of one group of people. Seems pretty weird for you guys to have a thread on TC, discussing the rules in another thread on TC and then tell TC members to fuck off if they don't actually play NES seriously. I feel all members are entitled to give their opinion on a thread on this forum - whether other individuals want to actually consider it or not is a different matter, but it seems ridiculous to belittle people just for making a post.

    If you want to make a "100% official totally authenticated no cheaters here no sir videos only pls" leaderboard, then go do that. Or just mentally strike the ones from our leaderboard that you don't believe are "genuine". I don't see why there's a problem or issue with that, or why you even need a thread discussing it.

    And have fun if someone posts a record that seems completely inconceivable yet provides apparent "video evidence" that it's real (has happened on here before with a user cheating). Because at the end of the day you can only try and deter people from posting fake scores if they want to, you can't ever 100% prevent it. By drawing a completely hard line between "official" and "unofficial" scores all you're doing is explicitly marking out for cheaters what line they need to cross. Say what you like about requiring videos but at the end of the day you're all going to have your own personal judgement on whether you think a score is real or not regardless of the evidence provided.
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2013
  10. My 2 cents:

    I think everyone here should have every right to voice their opinion.

    I do think, however, that it should not be considered a necessary function of TC to enforce the same rules for every tetris game, NES TGM or otherwise. A NES board with proof needed for 900+ pics below that and nothing required even further down could easily co-exist with other boards using slightly different requirements. It is true that NES players carry a certain TG legacy with them and like certain aspects of that burden of proof. Some other aspects were terrible, like charging people or having to send tapes rather than using youtube, or looooooooooooooooooooooooong verification waits (not the case with all refs mind you, just at certain points in TG history). I think the bold vs not bold idea would work ok as well as it would tend to differentiate between "proven" and "probable" scores.

    I mean, at this point, if you look at NES' nonproven scores they include a lot of things I completely believe: Supa's line count record is not proven, he has a higher line count record in his back to back video, but no video proof I've seen of the one that tops our leaderboard... I believe it entirely! Quaid has a max here and no video, sure, but the dude rocked like a 965k or something live. There isn't a player alive who can do that live and then be incapable of max. Louie has a bit wider a difference, but still a 910 on video outside of his max. Christopher B, a non-proven 960 something... I've seen him play and believe it entirely. And others as well. In point of fact I don't think we have a single false score on the board at this point. Unless you count undervaluing a player false in which case thor and jonas both have far earlier maxes than are shown. Usually when I show people this list at home i just tell them that, that the top is really harry jonas and thor in what ever order you wish.

    The fact that I believe them though is at least a little different from them being proven. And I still like the idea of different levels of proof required for different levels of achievement.

    But really, I like even more the idea of not having some sort of us versus them clique crap going on in tetris. There is no reason whatsoever for TGM players and NES players to be at odds. I think whatever differences of opinion that exist here are grounded in how the leaderboard should function on the NES page, not in trying to shut out TGM or modern tetris players from our clique. Our community is damn well small enough to certainly not wish to make it artificially smaller by shutting many of them out. If using the bold lettering compromise is the way to suit all sides, i say we go with that.
  11. I don't agree that all leadetboard posts in all games across all platforms should be exactly the same....we respect the way it has been done with other styles like tgm etc. but NES tetris games are roughly 9 minutes or so...relatively easy to record..andthe majority of top players have their best efforts on film...just makes sense to extend that very small burden of proof to say the top 10 or so it's not a matter of not believing the non filmed maxouts's partly the fact that they somehow forgot. To film their best game ever but have other lower scores recorded...seems like everyone at the top of the Nes board doesnt mind recording games...most of us captured our best game...2 werent as lucky...or diligent.........
  12. As a long time NES player with great passion and excitement for the game, I do believe that video verification has its merits and should be the standard for players looking to go down in the record books.*

    *Please don't misinterpret this to include anyone and everyone who plays the game.

    IMO, there are basically three tiers of players:
    1) Die-Hards... tetris is a part of life to them, they're going for the MAX
    2) Competitive players ... up and comers/renewed enthusiasts/folks pouring in the effort
    3) Casual players ... love the game, but seek no formal recognition for their efforts

    Having said that, folks in tiers 1 and 2 should plan appropriately to video their achievements over time to legitimize themselves and cement their work among the pantheon of legends before them.

    I never used to video. I didn't think i was good enough. In the past year, I jumped from a tier 2 player to a tier 1 and i'm never looking back.

    I have great respect for the Tetris community, all players and all formats. Everyone is entitled an opinion, but i strongly feel that proper video verification (power console on, no pausing, play through till end), abolishes all doubt. The pros simply exceed the cons. Even governing bodies such as Guinness demand live witness verification or video proof.... surely there is a logical reason for this, no?
  13. Ben, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I dislike your labelled split being between NES and TGM. It implies that the TC leaderboards are currently run by the TGM community. Whilst in practice the majority TC community is basically the western TGM community, I feel there's a key semantic point to be made, which is that the TC leaderboards are run by the TC community. By and for TC members.

    The leaderboards on that forum have pretty much always aimed to just be a record of TC scores. We've never aimed for them to be, nor claimed that they are, a definitive list of records for top players in the world (or even just top players in the west). We don't go around hunting scores and adding them to the list (with the exception of a few current world records because it's nice to have as a reference point). Those lists are for TC members to post their scores and engage in friendly competition, not to serve as some sort of official world/western rankings (even if in practice they pretty much are). We've never tried to be TG, or be to the level where we're Guinness affiliated, and increased traffic aside I don't think we'd want to be anyway.

    Whilst I think it's flattering that you NES guys might want to make the TC list the official one, I think the main issue I have is you guys coming and saying "we want your community leaderboard to be the official one and we want to make these demands on you changing your community leaderboard from the standard TC community leaderboard format and impose all these restrictions."

    And then some of you NES people have the nerve to claim that our community leaderboard is really for NES diehards only. That even though it's a leaderboard that was made by TC members, and has been run by TC members for as long as it's existed, it's somehow now your leaderboard to make whatever demands you want from it, and the opinions of TC members don't matter because we're not hardcore NES players and it doesn't concern us? If you guys collectively want to set up your own official leaderboard somewhere as a "NES community" then go do it, and by all means ignore opinions of non-NES people, but while you're potentially hijacking a TC community leaderboard then the opinion of the TC community at large matter too.

    Honestly, I think pre-existing formats work fine. Take the TA Death leaderboard for example. It's incredibly obvious from the formatting which scores are video verified, and for cases where there is no video there are links to other notable runs by that player. I don't get how this doesn't satisfy your demands whilst also keeping in the TC protocol of not demanding anything other than the game has been played with as close representation as is possible/acceptable to the real thing. If people's scores get questioned then the onus is on them to provide proof that they're legit, but otherwise everything is hunky-dory. And when the new website is up things will be even easier.

    And I feel your argument of "all good players record all their games anyway" is self-defeating. If all the best players already have videos of their best games (which is either the case, or your argument is is a false assumption to begin with) then why would there even be an issue? If people already have the videos then they should most likely be able to provide them anyway without it being demanded of them.

    And to the biggest reason for me:
    This, for me at least, is really dumb. If you can be #1 on the "official" leaderboard, despite knowing that someone else (and not just one person - two apparently) is actually better than you, has better scores than yours, but is behind you based on arbitrary technicalities on what scores are allowed, then your leaderboard is broken. I don't understand how you can all apparently insist that a leaderboard where the best scores by the best players aren't the ones at the top is the best way for things to be. And the claim of "everyone records their games anyway so it isn't a problem" is clearly not actually the case and is clearly causing the leaderboard to be incorrect as a result.

    If the best players need a "*this game isn't properly verified" note on their non-video'd scores but at least their scores are on there, then in my opinion that's better. I don't get how you can simultaneously claim they're the best when your "official" ranking clearly shows they're not, and yet also claim that your leaderboard is best leaderboard.

    I don't feel TG required video proof not because video proof is the best way to run an official leaderboard. They had it most likely because:

    a) They'd get overwhelmed by fake submissions if they didn't, due to the allure of being the official world record
    b) They can't afford to officially verify each score as seemingly subjectively to be legit with the relevant community before listing it, because it'd take far too much effort and in some cases might not even be possible
    c) From a business sense it's more important to them/Guinness that people can't prove the world record is fake than it is for it to actually be the genuine world record
    d) They didn't give a shit about inconveniencing people (or just Murphy's Law of getting the world record the one time you couldn't be bothered recording) because at the end of the day they hold the cards and nobody else has power to demand things be different.

    I don't think any of those three things apply to TC. And I'd take an approximately correct but unverified TC community leaderboard any day over a "verified" one that everyone who matters knows is actually not an accurate ranking.
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2013
  14. Rosti,

    So, while i think the beginning of you post seemed to make it seem to be directed towards me i think a good amount had to do with other folks perspectives. But as for me, I'm not suggesting a "labelled split being between NES and TGM", i would rather the entire TC community (which properly included both TGM players, NES players, and players of other varieties that might come up. I dont agree that those leaderboards should need to be run in exactly the same fashion for all players to play nice in the sandbox as it were. The very fact fact that you reference "pre-existing formats" means there is already more than one, and honestly I would be quite happy with the bolding idea for those with video.

    But its not as though there are TC members who have been here forever, then NES people who got here only recently. We have been active on this site for quite some time and also have the same level of buy-in when it comes to how leaderboards might function.

    Really, most every NES player out there known Kitaru and holds him in high regard, and he is the one who has put in the work to make the leaderboard in the first place. This all comes not really as some sort of attack on TC, or him, suddenly. It is the continuation of discussions, amicable ones, had at our last tournament... they should stay exactly that way.
  15. Yes, you'd be correct. Only really the first paragraph was directed at you, and then the rest was more general.

    I kind of think they should, because to me it just seems a bit odd to have different standards for different games. For us to say that some games we'll have an honour system for records and yet on others we require video proof or we'll assume you're a liar (even if just for top 10 scores) seems off to me. There's no logical reason for some games having one rule and other games having another, with the exception of non-serious rankings like 1-handed TGM or big mode. For all the serious and popular modes I think it's silly to try and argue that the people in the top 10 for one game have worked any less hard to be there than the equivalent people in another.

    When I say "formats" I was mostly just pluralising because there are multiple leaderboards (and because some have a bit more care in the presentation than others). There isn't a single board on TC that I know of where we require different proof to any of the others, or any other rules that differ either. It's basically "play the actual game that's listed, don't artificially slow the game speed or cheat in any other way", and that's about it.

    I could argue that actually, in comparison to how long a lot of us have been here and those boards have been around, most of the NES people are pretty recent (a lot of people joining 2013 compared to people who are 2006 or earlier). But I won't, because I don't think how long someone has been around is really that significant a factor in how much their opinion should matter. It's not actually relevant to anything. Guys who have been here less than 12 months should get as much say as people like c_t who have been here since 2004 (IIRC?).

    My points in that area were mostly arguing against the "we're the NES players, it's our leaderboard and if you don't play NES seriously fuck off it's none of your business", because that's not cool. I dislike fragmenting people into games they do or don't play, and if the discussion is about a leaderboard that is on TC then it's something anyone on the site should be able to weigh in on without being told they don't get to have an opinion.

    Also sorry my first two posts in this thread were a bit shit; they were written at 2am and at work respectively.
    Last edited: 11 Dec 2013
  16. I believe the crux of the argument is this:

    Knowing that video proof would be a requirement, do you want TC to become the official world record scoreboard for NEStris?

    My guess is that people who voted "no proof" on the original poll would also vote that they're not interested in being the official Guinness scoreboard (with the burden that entails).

    No judgement made here by me, I'm just trying to clarify what I think the root of the conflict is.
  17. Muf


    If that were the question (which is fairly hypothetical as it supposedly involves a contract with Guinness as well as money), I think the official world record scoreboard would have to be either separate or a subset of the existing scoreboard. At that point you can put whatever barriers that you want in place.
  18. You're right on Muf. Even if we were the "official" site, there's no reason our leaderboard can't include non-verified scores, and just note the ones that are verified. No reason whatsoever.

    I think it's pretty laughable that NES players don't think we value recording runs. TGM players have been recording superplays since the beginning of this site, and I've been recording superplays of puzzle game playing since 1997. I almost never play a game seriously without recording.

    However, just because I like to do it, it doesn't mean that I want to impose that on everybody that wants to post their score on a scoreboard.

    I honestly love this community due to how mature everybody is about this subject. TGM is probably the most hardcore game on the planet, and yet, we are welcoming and accept everybody's claims on face value, because seriously, why the fuck would anybody join such a niche community and lie about an achievement?
  19. I want to thank Ben and Rosti for articulating pretty much exactly what "2~4AM Me" was pretty much entirely incapable of conveying.
  20. It's a completely alternative note, but I'm fairly sure that even if we wanted to run the official Guinness world record management (I seriously doubt anyone in the current TC staff would want that extra faff and hassle and responsibility, but I could be wrong), then we'd run into name issues. Tetrisconcept is an OK name for a fan site, but I'd say we'd be excessively stepping onto registered trademarks and such if we were to become the authoritative source of the Tetris world records (though IANAL). That said maybe in being prodded into coming after us TTC would actually get off their asses and do something about it themselves.

Share This Page