Tetris Friends up on Facebook.com

Thread in 'Discussion' started by caffeine, 9 Apr 2008.

  1. exchliore

    exchliore Unregistered

    blink - Obviously it shouldn't be allowed. Maybe it's a bug, maybe it's intended. Who knows, maybe they'll change it soon and this will all be moot.

    jujube - yea, i missed that last combox2

    Again, over many attempts, I finally got a game where the perfect pieces came out and I didn't misdrop them and I could keep the field low.

    Anyway, I just finished working on this dumb 150 page document no one is ever going to read and I have a 10am meeting tomorrow morning and a full work week so I'm going to sleep. Night all.

  2. I want to see if it's true. So you used some bug/exploit to score an otherwise impossible score, came here to post it like it was done legitimately, and still aren't even sure why they banned you? How is the bug done anyways? I wouldn't risk getting banned trying it, but if they are banning already then they probably will fix it soon, so how is it done?

  3. It's not really that lame when the score being questioned is an impossible one to obtain in a legit way. btw - why would everyone question your score everywhere you go, when it didnt even save? do you tell everyone about your unsaved score?

    Also you claim to have no time to post on the forums, but you then state to have attempted over 500+ games of marathon in about a week, messing up on the very end of level 15 on many games, which is a whole lot of hours i'm sure. Sorry if I sound skeptical, but everything about your story isn't adding up to me.

    If you can explain the bug/glitch, everyone can see if it really is possible to get that score. Seriously, anyone can just say they scored over a million points. Like me, I scored over 15 million points, but it got deleted cause i'm that good and they thought I was cheating.
  4. Zaphod77

    Zaphod77 Resident Misinformer

    apparently the bug is to soft drop, then hold, then hard drop, to tack on extra drop points.

    And yes, it's a bug. any given line on the field should be scorable only once until a piece locks, whether a hard drop or a soft one.
  5. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    An impure program runs only on Windows if it uses JNI. Even a 100% Pure Java program runs only on Windows if a built-in method on every other platform throws UnsupportedOperationException or otherwise behaves contrarily to spec. In my estimation, the parts of Java that are still non-free (audio and video) are more likely to make this happen.

    Will they question a video?

  6. oh nice you figured it out
  7. Zaphod77

    Zaphod77 Resident Misinformer

    the obvious fix is to remove the soft drop points when you send a piece to the holdbox.
  8. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    would it really be done that way? it seems inelegant to ever subtract points from a score counter. what if there was a piece of code that acted as an intermediary between the calculated drop points and the score counter, which would only add more points to the counter if drop points < 40 since the last lockdown? your method would follow the intentions of the player well, but the player is still buying time pre-hold so the 2nd piece can be dropped faster with a specific plan. there might not be a system that's 100% free from abuse.

    exchliore: have you tried explaining the situation to tetris online to see if they would un-ban you?
  9. Zaphod77

    Zaphod77 Resident Misinformer

    No, it's correct to take the points back. hold is effectively rewinding time, so it should rewind the points.

    The other way is not to hand out the points until after lockdown, and then the player will never notice them getting taken away.
  10. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    i agree that anything that happens before a piece is held should be null and void, but i still don't think it makes sense to subtract points from a player's score. it could work to have the points appear after lockdown, which is what happens when you hard drop anyway. i guess they wanted the player to see their soft drop points added while they're earning them.

    and you're not exactly rewinding time when holding, because you just benefited from that time used to plan where you'll put the piece out of the hold box. that helps with getting more drop points and making better placements, and there's nothing to be done about it short of removing the hold feature.
  11. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    Or only allowing hold during ARE or the initial frame. Notice how Ti experts in the videos use IHS pretty much exclusively.
  12. i think rewarding soft drop points after the piece locks would be a good solution.
  13. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    what's that? you can do stuff during ARE? i've been playing too much tetris zone [​IMG]

    tetris friends marathon just seems to me like a mode for beginners, and i doubt there'll be any restrictions like that added. and the scoring system doesn't allow the player to help or hurt themselves a whole lot either. i believe the lowest score you can get while completing the mode is 620,000, and if you make 100% tetrises you'll be under 700,000. sure a few people will make a T-spin at the end of each level, and use hold to get more drop points, and make combo 1's [​IMG]

    the real flaw in the mode is not how drop points are handled, it's that your goal can decrease by more than the number of lines you cleared. if that weren't the case you'd see scores like 5 million, and you wouldn't see 1000s of people with nearly identical scores.
  14. exchliore

    exchliore Unregistered

    /sorry in advance for wall of text

    To start with:

    I think a good solution is to implement a non-hold bonus. That way you don't have to code anything too tricky. And, imo, it should be a bonus. There's no reason to limit point gain and it's not like drop points are ridiculously out of hand since half the time people don't even consider it.

    Again, I don't know if it's a bug/exploit. To us, and I mean us, obviously the scoring shouldn't work like this, but to the people who made the game, who knows, maybe that's what they wanted. No one put out an "official" guideline on exactly how points are scored and what should and shouldn't be. The informal guidelines in the application's description don't say you can't do it, in fact they only support the fact that you can do it. You might call it a bug/exploit because it doesn't fit with your standards, but there's no official statement on whether it should be allowed or not.

    For example, I'm sure there's many people who think that Tspins are terrible and people should revert back to Tetrises (although I'm sure there's more support on this forum for Tspins). And now people think that the new combo system is terrible and we should go back to Tspins. What if the the developers wanted to put the combo system out there as "the new mechanic"? Of course people aren't going to like it, but if you're good at Tetris, you should still be able to set up 1 line-1 line combos in tandem with no issues. Saying any noob can do it is a lie. It looks easy, but playing the perfect game and maximizing points across 15 levels is pretty hard to accomplish, how many times do I have to hold myself back from a x2 or x3 combo? Many, many times. Anyway, that's a tangent. Back on topic, what if the developers wanted to untrivialize drop points? I'm not saying that this is what they want, but I'm saying they haven't said anything against it and it might be their plan all along.

    /this is my opinion

    I think the developers created Tetris Marathon to promote Combos as "the new mechanic". They want to say that Tspins and Tetris's are old and this is new. What I think they messed up on is how combo point efficiency works because x1 is far better than x2, x3, x4, x5, and x6 (continuing on, except for a few at the end). And not having lines carry over to the next level is a way of saying that the ability to build back to back Tetris' and Tspins is still important and it's more important to build that into a combo. And if you don't like it, I'm not sure what you can do? Not play TF?

    /end of my opinion

    Again, it's only "not legit" by your definition. Technically, at this point, we can assume it is legit and very possible to get. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's cheating or not valid.

    Well, how many games did I mess up on the early levels and restart? I had a really big issue with the level 3-4, 7-8-9 transition. So a new game every few minutes/seconds? If I'm waiting on a coworker to get work done and that's about 15 minutes, sure, 5-10 games in. If I'm taking my lunch break and don't have much better to do, I'll get a lot more games in there too. If I'm at a meeting and people keep taking 15 minute breaks, sure I'll play a few games. And every now and then I'll make it to level 15. And I make frequent use of the pause feature so sometimes games can carry on.

    My jobs only mandate that I do work when I have work, but I push out my projects fast and I have a good turnaround time, giving me lots of small breaks to do nothing (somehow I've already doubled the amount of work of some coworkers who have been here longer than me). Also, I don't browse forums at work, playing Tetris doesn't look too much better, but forums have chance of work unfriendly pictures which gets me fired (and also, we're really casual, if I'm waiting on someone to get work done, no one really cares what I do, so long that I don't violate company policies).

    For my contract job that I work from home, if I don't have work, then well, I have time to do whatever I want. But if there's work to be done then I'll work on it. So sometimes my nights are free, but most of the time they're not (but I'll take breaks to play a game every now and then). And if I'm going to browse forms, I'm heading over to fark first because they provide better entertainment value and that might just take up all my time.

    Wasn't really a reason given so I don't know what's held against me. Although they did say that it would be fixed in the future, so I assume that in a few days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, there'll be a way for them to check the integrity of a score instead of having to assume fraudulent activities.

    Yes. 1. How many games do I have to play to get something decent in? Okay, so if I prove that the mechanics allow me to get a lot of points, now I have to play 500 more games to prove I can get a score? Okay, now I have to prove I can do it more than once? Okay, now I've given lazy people the easy way to get a better score than me and now I'm being called a noob? and 2. Why should I reveal my secrets that people scream hax instead of trying to figure out for themselves? I already told people where their theory was wrong and the motivated people went out and found it while everyone else just complained that it's not possible. From my standpoint, I didn't need to tell anyone anything and I'm far less apt to tell someone something if they're just going to sit there and make me do all the work for them to profit off of.

    You've seen people question my scores in the past, you've seen this whole ordeal with me once before. It's pretty funny that you're just as quick to jump on the boat now as you did last time. Who would I tell, you? I guess I could send you an IM every time I get an amazing score on something? Remember years ago back on the tnet2 forums when everyone thought I hacked Atsuro's java game? And then I had to make a video showing that I could double the score of what I had on there? And then people wanted more proof? Ridiculous. Apparently, you're the same too.

    Sure, and I think I defended myself enough. Why would I claim a score I never got? Also, I continued to defend myself. I thought you guys had played enough to think about it, but I guess it was overlooked and I found the disconnect when I got to look at the lovely google spreadsheet. I pointed out where the logic was wrong. I didn't say that I hit the best score possible. I even said that someone was going to come around and do much better. I didn't claim an amazing score, I claimed a score.

    Just because you can't figure out the mechanics of a game and do the math on your own doesn't mean you're right when you piggyback off other people's logic to call me a fraud. Everyone else did the math. They set up the lovely spreadsheets that showed their logic and train of thought. You didn't do any work yourself and added no productiveness to the conversation. All you did was say unpleasant words without adding anything.

    Did I ever claim anything abnormally absurd in the past with you? We've spent so many years on tnet2 and I never put a claim to you that wasn't true. And this was a small claim, it wasn't humongous, the math here showed 980,000 and I claimed 20,000 more points and said that it's possible for more. 20,000/980,000 = 2%. 2% could mean a decimal point error in the math or something overlooked. You're claming 15,306% more. How is that even closely related to my claim?

    Also I defended my claim every time there was a point made against my logic. I'm not going to go out of my way to write a book about everything I know. Other people had math to show and logic to talk about, all you did was troll and repeatedly say that I obviously hacked when you couldn't prove it yourself. When I said something could be done, you say I must have cheated. This is another point I can make. Why should I post my own spreadsheets to prove you wrong when you're too lazy to do the work yourself?

    I had a strategy, I did the math, I made my own spreadsheets, and I even tried to get a top score before even looking elsewhere for more strategies and thoughts. Everyone else had much better posts, they even put down solutions to the issue at hand and discussed what was good or bad and why. jujube made good thoughts, it's not elegant to subtract points, I agree. zaphod77 is a go getter, he went out and just looked for it. If you're going to just sit there and troll, then at least learn how to troll, questioning every word I say won't help you troll very much.

    /sorry for wall of text
  15. Muf


  16. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    But it doesn't appear to cover scoring. Very few products since the 2001 introduction of SRS have had an identical scoring system. I can think of Tetris DS and Tetris Zone, but that's about it.
  17. The only person who posted a spreadsheet was Lardarse, so I don't know what you mean by everyone else posting their spreadsheets. I read other people's posts before i posted. I simply followed Lardarse's spreadsheet, and agreed with it because it made sense. It made so much sense it led me to believe that a score over a million would be impossible (which would be the case if piece drop points could not be scored twice). It's not necessary for me to come up with something completely new on my own if I already agree with what's already posted. Would you rather have me repeat everything he just posted and make an identical spreadsheet.

    I honestly have no clue what you are talking about, what score has been questioned before? Was it your blocks per minute on tetrinet2? I can't think of anything else. I was quick to jump on the boat? If you can remember me complaining about the score at the time too, what was it about? It's definitely not blocks per minute then, must be something else. I really don't know what you are talking about, please remind me. I am not one to cry foul easily, you know i get accused of being a cheater on tetrinet2 almost daily by speed alone.

    Not really, I asked how do you do it? When you wouldn't show me, it made me believe you had something to hide. You also said you were banned, and the score never saved because of it. Who wouldn't be suspicious? Lardarse's thorough calculations furthered any suspicions I had. I was not calling you a cheater from the start, I just wanted to know how you did it because I was very skeptical with data being presented against you and a ban to go with your name, along with a non saved score. You didn't show me how, making me question the score even more, but zaphod figured it out.

    What I asked for was very little - show me how to do it. Not even a video would have been necessary. Once Zaphod figured it out, and posted his 2 sentences explaining it, did I ask for anything more? Nope.
    Btw - no I don't remember any atsuro java game, I probably wasn't registered on the forums yet, but comparing me to those people makes no sense because once I found out how to do this, i stopped asking. After that, my only other post was a solution suggestion that they can fix it by awarding points after blocks lock.

    The score was believed to be impossible. Why would it matter the difference between 2 impossible scores? Was my score TOO impossible?
  18. At this point I feel that I should say something here. I haven't actually drawn any conclusions from my spreadsheet. I've deliberately let other people do it. And I didn't do it primarily to see if you were cheating. I did it because I wanted to see if one million points was posible in Tetris Zone marathon (which has more permissive scoring rules), and then with a slight modification arrived at the Tetris Friends marathon scores.

    But the numbers can only ever tell half the story. And I think you know exactly what I'm talking about...

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