Speed curves

Thread in 'Discussion' started by herc, 21 Feb 2007.

  1. sorry about missusing this thread, but i do not want to start a new thread:

    is there something in the wiki about how drop speed increases in different tetris implementations? for example, i am not sure how to handle starting levels. if one chooses starting level 9, should the speed stay constant for a longer time till it increases to level speed 10, or should it increase the same way as when starting at level 1? what is standard ? how is it handled in different tetris versions?
  2. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    Where I know of it, I have tried to put it in articles such as Tetris (NES, Nintendo).

    If we take TDS as the prototypical Tetris2005 game (and I don't see anything to contradict it), then the standard is that if I start on level 15, I don't get to level 16 until I have cleared 150 lines.
  3. @tepples: thanks!

    i see. but i must say i do not like level advancing to be based on line clears, because this does not reward fast gameplay!! if you are quick in dropping pieces, you will get punished with a level advance, instead of getting more points in the same amount of time as slower players.

    how is it done in these grandmaster series?
  4. TGM isn't about points (it's about a time attack) so your comparison doesn't really carry over. Every piece and every line will increase the level by 1, and you race to 999.

    I think 10 lines = 1 level is pretty dumb, but only because it's redundant and confusing without any real benefit. Well, maybe confusing isn't the right word... But the gameplay is elegant and the on-screen information should follow suit and simply list the lines, in my opinion.

    TGM is extra guilty of having Way Too Much information... Though TGM3 did improve things by removing the (ignored) score, and withholding the grade rating until the game is over. This made things aestetically more pleasing for beginners, though sadly the game is no less inviting. I can't see beginners naturally making the jump from Easy to Master (as in, without really trying and just playing for fun).
  5. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    ...20 to 40 bonus points per tetromino. Also, lines scored at higher levels are worth more, which is why players going for score attack start at level 20 (whose speed is 20G).
  6. It is when you suck like myself and can't actually get into the high S grades.

    I'll get a Gm rank first, and then worry about speed and times.
  7. I'll agree with that statement. One of the things that appealed most to me about TGM was that it was about multiple things at the same time. For me, and many others, it's about points. And I like that. Later on, if I manage to get to the high S ranks, I'll worry about time. This certainly appeals to a wide range of players. I wouldn't say TAP has too much information, I'd say it's just about right.
  8. Because of the way score works, if you're a beginner survival will always give you a significantly higher score. The first, say, 300 levels are almost inconsequential compared to the next 300. So looking at level should be good enough.

    Though I guess if you like big numbers...

  9. Didn't Worlds, iPod, all cell phone versions, (the current) Zone, and a whole bunch of other versions before and after TDS use that system with variable "lines" per level and different line clears having different line values?

    Also, TDS and TNC are the only games that support manual locking by pressing down when a piece is touching the ground.

    Although I do think those are probably included in some kind of "recommended but not mandatory" section in the guidelines, if there is one...
  10. I think worlds and deluxe (maybe not worlds, but definitely possibly deluxe) both lock at soft drop, it's just more apparent in tds because the lack of inbetween frames as well as 20g.
  11. Yeah, but the rank is based on score. If I get so many points, then I'm at S8, and the levels don't mean anything. When I start regularly getting S8 and S9, I'll start worrying about the checkpoints. I'm pretty sure that I'm well within them anyway.
  12. i have tried to make an exponential speed curve as in lockjaw, that satisfies both casual - and hardcore gamers. the problem is, that i need a fixed curve because of online highscore lists. to have just one highscore list, this curve should please beginners with slow drop speeds in lower levels and rapidly rising drop speeds till 20G in higher levels.

    additionally, if one starts at a higher level, lets say level 10, Replica (a user from my forums at gravytris, who helped alot in many design issues) requested that the drop speed nonetheless increases, but slower.

    the current v0.7 version of gravytris just stayed at level 10 for 10 minutes, and only then did continue increasing the drop speed.

    but thats bad, because a gamer could choose a level he can just manage, and make big points. better would be to slooowly increase pressure.

    also, i think its good to constantly lower lock delay. 20G sounds cool, but if the lock delay just stays at 500 ms its not really 20G in the sum.

    so my idea was to linearly lower lock delay till zero. so even the best player will never reach pure 20G! only the best will eventually make it to 18G or such.

    and to nail all that down i have max 5 lock delay resets.

    what do you think? does this scheme work for both casual and progamers?

    scheme implemented here:



    here, speed curves for different starting levels

  13. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    LJ exponential starts at 1092/65536 rows per frame (approx. 1/60G). After each piece, 3/256 of gravity is added to gravity, for a doubling roughly every 60 pieces:
       p->gravity += p->gravity * 3 / 256;
    To change the difficulty of the game, change the 3/256.

    That is by design, at least in Tetris (NES), Tetris (Game Boy), Tetris & Dr. Mario, Tetris DX, and Tetris DS.

    That's a bit harsh, where the lock delay hits 0 before the speed hits 20G, and it appears to be inconsistent with the Guideline, as it gives no room for slides or twists. I prefer the approach of TAP, where the lock delay doesn't dramatically decrease until the speed hits 20G. In LJ, it takes log(1200)/log(1+3/256) = 608.5 pieces (ca. 240 lines) to reach 20G, at which point the variable holding the current speed has a different interpretation. After each piece, 3/256 * 20G is added to gravity, and the lock delay is set to 800/gravity (i.e. the time it would take for the piece to fall 800 rows). So eventually, Exponential will be going as fast as TGM3 Shirase.
  14. @tepples: thanks for comments!

    so in LJ, you are lowering lock delay slowly, but only after 20g is reached?

    can you tell me what is a value for lock delay a pro-gamer can barely manage under 20G ? 100ms? or 50 ms?

    and is it ok to limit lock delay resets to five? or is this not enough to play coordinated for a while under 20G?
  15. the limit probably lies somewhere around 166ms-- depending on lock down conditions.
  16. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    TGM3 Shirase is thought to use lock delays between 333 ms and 150 ms, and the best players have been seen to successfully drop 900 pieces under these conditions. Whether faster is deemed possible depends on what Arika introduces to the [improper characterization removed] in TGM4.

    TGM3 uses step reset for lock delay in all classic modes including Shirase.

  17. That sort of prejustice comment really has no bearing on reality. I have a job, friends, and a girlfriend. I play a wide variety of games including Tetris. What more do you want from me? I doubt better players are much different, because I haven't felt the need to sacrifice my life to get better.

    I don't appreciate that stereotype and would rather you kept such comments to yourself.
  18. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    I apologize for not keeping my impulses under control. It's just that most people to whom I've shown the Shirase video that's duplicated a dozen times on YouTube think it's either a bot, a TAS, or somebody with not much of a life outside video games.
  19. No worries.

    It's funny though. Imagine if people had that reaction to a pianist playing some Rachmaninoff. Or an athlete in motion. Or pretty much everything else skilled.

    Yeah, society is weird.
  20. Ken_P

    Ken_P Unregistered

    Not to re-open this can of worms, but in many (not all) cases, the pianist or athlete *has* devoted their life to develop that talent. Most professional musicians started at a very young age and practiced for many hours a day to be able to do what they do. I'm not saying tetris players (or other gamers) are like that, but it's not an unnatural reaction to have.

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