# Off Topic: Other games.

1. ### Rosti LFC

Re: off topic: Other games.

I'm a pretty big fan of bullet hell shmups too. Mostly DoDonPachi (as anyone who has played will know from my avatar), Esp Ra.De., Guwange and Perfect Cherry Blosson (from Touhou).

Dunno why I like the style of game so much, but I enjoy the challenging aspect of it.

I'd post my record for PCB, but it's invalidated by the fact that I get considerable slowdown on the bosses after about the 4th level, so it makes it a lot easier.

2. ### jujubeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

nice, that's exactly the solution that was intended.

3. ### Taratang

Re: off topic: Other games.

What do you mean by properly made? It's definitely possible to have more than one solution. A chessboard pattern of any size, just for example, has two alternatives that are both perfectly acceptable solutions by definition.

Code:
 1 1
1| | |
1| | |

Also, there are lots of puzzles that require recursive logic, making them impractical to solve with pencil and paper. I wouldn't really call it trial and error, as a strong player will know the best areas to scrutinise using an overlay that can be scrubbed if it doesn't lead to a contradiction.

4. ### jujubeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

this is a game i may implement if i ever unlazify myself and learn more about programming. let me know what you guys think. i haven't worked out all the details, just the basic idea. the controls are very simple (arrow keys only) and it only takes 2 keystrokes to make a move, so speed could be as important as careful decision making.

Code:
the number in the center (randomly generated 1-9) is used to affect
a number in a bordering square to make it equal (or eventually equal) to
any number in a corner. if a number in a bordering square is told to be
less than 1 or greater than 999 it simply becomes 1 or 999.

next|2|
_______
| * |
|   |
25 |- 315 +| 451
|   |
_______|___/___|_______
| * |   | * |
|   |   |   |
|- 683 +| 5 |- 126 +|
|   |   |   |
|___/___|_______|___/___|
| * |
|   |
870 |- 48 +| 196
|   |
|___/___|

press right to make the five affect the 126, then press down to divide 126
by 5 (rounds to the nearest whole number). 126 becomes 25 and the 25 in
the upper left disappears or becomes a new number.

next|8|
_______
| * |
|   |
|- 315 +| 451
|   |
_______|___/___|_______
| * |   | * |
|   |   |   |
|- 683 +| 2 |- 25 +|
|   |   |   |
|___/___|_______|___/___|
| * |
|   |
870 |- 48 +| 196
|   |
|___/___|

6. ### tepplesLockjaw developer

Re: off topic: Other games.

(watches the first four episodes)

Finally, a funny Mario video that isn't a poop of the Hotel Mario FMVs or the Super Mario World animated TV series.

(goes back to removing snow from sidewalk)

7. ### colour_thief

Re: off topic: Other games.

This is true, and it's exactly what I meant. Even sudoku can have several solutions, but it won't if it was properly made. It's up to the puzzle designer to make sure the puzzle has a unique solution. It's not hard to verify... If you can fill in every square without trial and error, then there is only one solution by definition. This means you can solve it using logic and contradictions, but you can't use "a lack of contradicitons" with the overlay method.

That said, sometimes puzzle designers cut corners and it's not unheard of for a puzzle to have several solutions. They're just not supposed to.

8. ### Air GearUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

I haven't watched your replay yet...but have you played Mountain of Faith? That's the only Touhou game I have and...well, I've 1cc'ed it on Normal Mode and can get about four spell cards into the Extra boss. Have you played that one? How are ya at it?

9. ### lee n

Re: off topic: Other games.

This is the difference between computer generated puzzles and hand made puzzles, designing puzzles is an art and companies like Nikoli take pride in only providing hand made puzzles.

http://www.nikoli.co.jp/en/puzzles/sudo ... sudoku.htm

A good puzzle should be solvable without trial and error and it should also only have one solution.

10. ### jujubeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

i see your point, but surely someone could design a program that could generate puzzles that have one solution and could be solved through deduction.

edit: i spoke too soon before reading the article you linked to. still, ...

isn't there more than one way to go about solving a sudoku? how does the designer know you'll follow the intended path to victory? i'm not so sure about there being a "human touch" in a mathematical game, after all, no one can compete with a computer when it comes to calculation, which is all it really takes to create this type of puzzle.

11. ### colour_thief

Re: off topic: Other games.

Yes, I'm not sure what computer generated puzzles have to do with being solvable. It's actually easier for a computer to verify if the solution is unique than a human. I still think humans can make far better puzzles though... There's more to a good puzzle than a unique solution.

12. ### jujubeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

then why aren't these designers creating programs that follow the same process for creating a puzzle? seems they could save themselves some time and trouble. i understand the need for the human element in more artistic endeavors, but this is a number game we're talking about.

maybe i haven't played enough Sudoku but i'm not sure i could tell the difference between a puzzle created by a human and a computer.

13. ### PoochyUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

From what I understand, the standard procedure for creating a Picross puzzle is for a human to create the pattern, then run it through a computer program to make sure the puzzle is solvable with a unique solution.

Basically, they do use programs that follow the procedure to save themselves the trouble.

14. ### lee n

Re: off topic: Other games.

You can still let a computer verify the design when the puzzle is hand made, it's just that you shouldn't let the computer design the puzzle.

15. ### Needle

Re: off topic: Other games.

I don't know much of Sudoku or the "human touch" but I imagine it's similar to the difference between a hand-tuned speed curve and an algorithmic one.

16. ### jujubeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

still no speed mode, bg, sfx, animations, etc.

changes:

1. 9 number bag randomizer for center number

2. runs in a window

3. more improvement to random number generator

17. ### Zaphod77Resident Misinformer

Re: off topic: Other games.

A devious puzzle may SEEM to have multiple solutions, but in fact only have one.

The key is realising that there IS one intended, unambiguous, solution.

This can be applied to many types of puzzles.

The best example of this is crosswords. Through inspection, you see that there seem to be two answers that fit one clue. And when you pick one of them, you can continue to solve the puzzle, the letter that overlaps seeming to resolve ambiguities in other clues. But then you find a second clue that has two working answers, and overlaps no new areas. You could put either one, and the puzzle migh gtbe completable. This is a sign that your first choice for the earlier clue was incorrect, because the puzzle is known to have one unambiguous solution, so if you go back and select the other solution, you will end up with only one answer that fits the "leaf" clue. Usually if you continue to work farther after finding such a multiple possibility dead end clue, you will get stuck later and wonder why. But in a rare case you will be able to complete the puzzle. But because that clue that only overlaps one other clue has two possible solutions, you know you are incorrect on an earlier clue! Note that you will not always be aware of the alternate answer to the clue that screwed you up.

Other "cross" type puzzles, like double crostics or cross sums also make use of this. Any puzzle where answes to clues depend on answers to other clues can use this devious trick. But that does not mean it is not properly made. it is only improperly made if you check the answer and only leaf clues are wrong.

PS. a true nonogram is a picture. Sometimes it may seem that trial and error is the only way to proceed. But if you can recognise enough of what you see to identify the picture, you can fill in some of the gaps, and then continue to calculate.

18. ### evybabeeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

these are my top 10 favorite games of all-time:

10. Mah-Jong Solitaire - i especially like the touch-screen versions on MegaTouch machines.

9. Street Fighter II - as a teenager, this was the first video game i ever played in a competitive way. Ryu was my man.

8. Kakuro/Sudoku - i love math, word and logic puzzles of all kinds. Sudoku is pretty fun, but Kakuro is much more challenging and diverse. Kakuro (also known as Cross Sums) is like a math crossword puzzle.

7. Minesweeper - when i got my first computer, all i did was play MS on it (and occasionally Backgammon on FIBS). my fastest time on Expert is 67 sec. i also really liked playing without marking any bombs at all.

6. Bust-A-Move/Puzzle Bobble/Snood/Boogie Bunnies - B-A-M and PB are the most fun, especially for multiplayer because of the speed and garbage factor. Snood on Evil was very addictive for me for a while. BB is just so freaking adorable.. the bunnies say cute things, dance, and they wave their little bunny ears at you.

5. Picross - i just got my DS in january, and i finished all of the standard and free mode puzzles in the game in less than a month. i'm playing the downloadable classic puzzles now. i suck at the multiplayer tho.

4. Snooker - i love all kinds of pool/billiard games, but Snooker is my favorite. I spent all of my teen-age years playing Snooker at my local pool hall. 8-ball and 9-ball are a lot of fun as well, but they seem more like fast-food to me. Snooker is more complex, it's played on a larger table, and the higher level of skill and strategy that it requires makes it much more interesting and sophisticated game. i hardly ever get the chance to play anymore though, because Snooker is not very popular here in the US. i was never amazing at it, but i was pretty decent. my high-run is 76.

3. Guitar Hero (3, 2, 80's, 1) & Rock Band - even though i listed these games as #3, since i first discovered GH in august, it has been my biggest obsession. even though RB has better songs and downloadable content, i like the play of GH3 much better. RB is great for when you have friends over tho. i'm also super awesome at GH3, so maybe that's why i love it so much!

2. Tetris - no other video game has withstood the test of time for me like Tetris has. in my 15+ years of playing this game, i'm still completely addicted to it, even though little has changed in the gameplay. i like Splash multiplayer the best because with in-game voice chat, it's much more social than any of the other versions i've tried, which makes playing a lot more fun in my opinion.

1. Poker - i'm a professional poker player by occupation, and i've been playing this game for about 15 years as well. there are so many different facets to the game that make it so much more complex and deeper than any other games. it takes math skills, deductive reasoning, psychological 'reading' ability, acting skills, card-sense and game strategy to be a good poker player. poker is a game of incomplete information, and when it comes to No-Limit Texas Hold'em (my favorite game), there are so many variables to consider into your strategy, that there is never a distinctly correct way to play any given hand, which to me, makes poker the ultimate mind game.

19. ### evybabeeUnregistered

Re: off topic: Other games.

omg... i can't believe i left-out Super Mario Bros! i love all the Mario games, except Super Mario 2, which was only ok.. i don't even think i finished the game. i used to be able to finish the original SMB back-to-back on 1 life

i also like Wario Ware, especially the mini-games.

20. ### sjoecool1991

Re: off topic: Other games.

One game I absolutely love to this day is Wetrix.

It is one of the best puzzle games I have ever played.

I have completed the Fatal Frame Series.

And I am addict to Guitar Hero and City Of Heroes.

I also play lots of shmups.