# Keyboard VS Joystick

Thread in 'Hardware' started by Amnesia, 10 Mar 2008.

1. ### AmnesiaPiece of Cake

After a little discussion about this point with colour_thief, I decided to check the general opinion here..

Is it really proved that keyboard players will definitely stay faster than joystick players ?

Sure joytick is better for sub 20G..No need to check it..

But what about very high speed ?

Why today we have this situation ?

Code:
 1 - DIGITAL--------------S6 - 679 @ 2:56:91 - Heb - 01/03/08
2 - Matt_hatter----------S6 - 663 @ 3:32:76
3 - kotetsu--------------S5 - 542 @ 2:26:46 - Tex - 02/29/08
=============================================================
4 - colour_thief---------S5 - 500 @ 2:28:-- - TI - --/--/--
5 - jagorochi------------S5 - 500 @ 2:--:-- - TI - --/--/--
6 - Amnesia--------------S5 - 500 @ 2:42:45 - Heb - 02/18/08

Don't worry I am not upset, like this situation, that changes from 2007 and it is motivating..

Currently, it seems that we can't answer..Because there is still some japan players faster than jono, DIGITAL and kotetsu with a joystick..

2. ### lee n

No. That just happens to be the case on this forum. In japan the best/fastest Ti-players are all playing with arcade sticks.

Here's the world record holder in Shirase - he's playing with an arcade stick:

edit: Didn't Matt Hatter get a VSHG btw?

3. ### AmnesiaPiece of Cake

Matt has got a Joystick but his last records have been performed with a keyboard..(I remember that his best was DEATH 666 with the stick)

About the video, it exactly this one which pushed me to write this thread..Top japan players have not the same problem as us..They can play on the real TGM serie with a good joystick so, jin8, kan, zab and others have not developped any keyboard ability..

4. ### lee n

I can only speak for myself.. I used to play with the keyboard but I decided to order an Arcade Stick and while I sucked with the stick initially I have never looked back to the keyboard.

Eventually I got back to my previous level and I have since surpassed that level. I much prefer playing with a stick now, and I'm better with it.

The fact that Digital, Kotetsu, Matt and the guys are better at playing with the keyboard than I am with the arcade stick just means that they're better than me.. it doesn't mean that keyboards are better than arcade sticks.

5. ### caffeine

So it works both ways, and just saying player x is better with a joystick/keyboard means very little. Keyboard keys and arcade buttons should be about the same speed. However, I'd be willing to say moving the joystick from say the left position to the right position is slower for two reasons:
• the distance from neutral to left is physically longer than the distance from key off to key on, and
• the single hand must move the stick all the way from left to right, while with the keyboard you can use two fingers (one can lift off left while the other pushes right simultaneously) and instead of having two transition times (left to neutral and neutral to right), you only have one transition time where two are happening at the same time (simultaneous key 1 off and key 2 on). You just can't go, with a stick, from left to neutral at the same time you go from neutral to right.

6. ### lee n

caffeine: Have you even tried playing Tetris with a proper arcade stick?

Sure you can, the difference is negligible. You can even go all the way from the left to the right at the same time you can move from neutral to the right. It takes very little to move the stick, it really makes no difference between tilting the stick 10 or 15 degrees when you just flick your wrist like that.

I'm sure you could see a difference with a highspeed camera, but really, you're overstating its importance.

7. ### caffeine

okay, so you're saying you can go twice as fast for one. why not go twice as fast for the first one? but then you'll still be going half as fast as the second. see where i'm going with this?

edit: the only time when it truly is negligible is when the player can "flick" faster than 16.667ms so no extra frames are wasted, right? keep in mind, one frame may not sound like much, but at 300 tetrominoes, that's five seconds right there--not a huge amount, but definitely not negligible.

8. ### lee n

I see where you're going, but I'm not sure why - there's nothing there.

I haven't measured exactly how long it takes to tilt the stick, but it can't be many milliseconds.. and the difference, well there's a huge difference between throw and engage on a stick. The engage is really just a couple of millimeters away - it doesn't take all day to move that distance.

And you're forgetting about ARE, even at Shirase 1200 you have 3 frames to move the stick to the opposite side.

Again. You're overstating its importance.

9. ### AmnesiaPiece of Cake

From SHIRASE 500, ARE takes 5 frames max, and then decrease..

I think it is impossible to avoid losing 1 frame on the neutral position..

Anyway, it is one of the main points I wanted to make you discuss..
We can consider the difference could be only about the directions..

The buttons don't seem to bring a difference, as long as you have 4 fingers, you can do everything with both..

EDIT : sorry Lee N I just posted on the same time..

10. ### lee n

caffeine: Another point, using your own logic and considering the TGM games were not designed to be played with a keyboard - you're basically saying that you get an unfair advantage.

And:

I'm not saying you are cheating though, I still think the difference is negligible.

11. ### caffeine

I'm not cheating because I've never claimed a record for an authentic arcade game while playing with a keyboard. To add to that, the topic creator never said this discussion was limited to TGM games. Good try though.

"I see where you're going, but I'm not sure why - there's nothing there," you say. To wearingly reiterate, I'm going "there" to point out that there is indeed a longer physical distance between on and off with the joystick than with the keyboard. I'm not saying that alone means everyone should just pack up their arcade sticks and break out the keyboards, but I am saying that it is a fact.

12. ### lee n

He did use the TGM games as an example though, so I'm staying on the subject.

Yes, but at what framerate do you think you'd have to record arcade stick movement to actually see the stick tilting instead of just a blur (if that) between the neutral position and the engage? Most cameras are not fast enough to pick up your arm when you swing it as fast as you can, let alone the few millimeters the arcade stick move when you're playing.

I still think you're overstating the importance of this negligible difference.

13. ### Needle

Is this discussion going anywhere further with no test results or evidence for or against?

14. ### caffeine

tgm3_prom20070907.mpg is 29.97fps, and it seems like it takes jin8 between 1 and 3 movie frames, so maybe in actual real time this is between negligible and 6 frames.

now look at polly's quadra vid, always one frame (or more keys per frame) to press the left/right buttons.

15. ### lee n

But then you're measuring the throw, not the engage. There's a big difference. The input will register (the engage) before it hits the maximum tilt (the throw).

16. ### AmnesiaPiece of Cake

Ofcourse this discussion is not only limited to the TGM serie..

Lockjaw for example..I am about 11th ? 12th ?

My worst rank on TC..But I am the only one who try to perform a 40lines/40sec with a joystick..It should be interesting to see what c_t and jago are able to do..

17. ### caffeine

hmm, if there weren't ARE we could measure the engage by comparing the throw to the in-game reaction, but other than that i can't see a way to test it.

18. ### lee n

I did a few tests myself.. and I can move the stick the full throw from left to right in a single frame at 30fps. And I'm not the best of players.

Sorry for shitty quality. I'd do more testing if I had a proper camera that could at least do 60fps.

19. ### AmnesiaPiece of Cake

OK..Tell me if I am totaly confused, but your test means that such a move takes 1 frame at 30fps, so 2 frames at 60fps, with a ARE at 5 frames for example ?

And we know that we can do the same move in 0 frame with a keyboard..I know it is not a good reason, considering the fact that SHIRASE 1200 is not a problem for around 15-20 japan players on the earth..

20. ### lee n

Worst case scenario it means 2 frames.. it could still be 1 frame in 60 fps. But I wouldn't know without trying.