"They're faster because they make the pieces magically warp to the other side of the screen". Wow, now you've lost me. I thought we were talking about when you put a tetromino in a gap, try to rotate it, and it pops all the way out. What are you talking about?
First, thanks for putting in some effort into that post. Next, here is why I prefer L and J to point down. TGM wallkicks from the pointing down stances are useful in that they can save direction tapping. With SRS the L and J have no useful wallkicks from the default stance. There's no finesse that opens up new practical moves. Here is an example: The conditions are high speed 20G, and the desired move here is to stick the J under the overhang. The above image shows the initial spawn. From there the player will go: Right Counter Clockwise (piece wallkicks right) Left And you're done! It's a very simple and elegant solution that really can't be done in SRS. I'm not an SRS expert... How would you get the piece there? If a TGM player needs the flat stance to jump over a 2-wide hole, there's a special technique to do it, even at high speed 20G: IRS-A Left (held down) C The trick is to rotate a second time while the DAS is charging. Everything will happen so fast that players who don't know this particular finesse will be slightly confused and think the player did some god-like synchro move or something. This move highlights an important point that I have raised in past discussions with you. Because button C is pressed during DAS charging, it is essentially free. However, with your kpt analysys it would count it as an extra button. We can argue stances until we're blue in the face and it won't be very conclusive. Your "kpt" stat tries to speak more broadly, however it has a fatal flaw in that it doesn't acknowledge parallel input. There's a huge difference in DAS'ing an IRS'ed piece to the wall, and DAS'ing a piece to the wall and then rotating. Both are used often as the single fastest move for what you want to do. The first is a 1 step maneuver, and the latter is a 2 step maneuver. Again your methods treat these as equal. What I'm trying to say is, even if we accept your kpt stats comparing yourself and jin8 in a single game as a representative sample of "perfect" TGM and SRS rules play, it is not unreasonable to think that TGM play has more parallelization which makes up for the difference in kpt and gives it the lead overall. After all, we're only talking about a 0.12 kpt difference here. Even though I find your methods flawed, I agree with your general approach. Lets revisit the problem: The humain brain is pretty amazing at thinking and, properly trained, it is not the speed bottleneck. Actually moving the pieces is what limits the speed of play. In a perfect world, we'd measure the speed of a move by counting the frames it would take a player with x frames of timing precision and y frames of double tapping recoil. Then we'd average this out and see how many frames per piece on average is required. Frames per piece... Hmm... Some of you are probably scratching your heads and saying "but doesn't a standard time attack conveniently give us all this information? and World is slower than Classic?". Well, it does and it doesn't. There's no way to tell how tight different players are. Even if you take the World/Classic double Gm jin8, who likely has a constant x frames of timing precision and y frames of double tapping accross both systems, there's no way of knowing his SRS finesse isn't lacking. Now, I'm not actually suggesting we do this immensely time consuming frame counting exercise... I have something a little more practical in mind. Instead of using frames per tetromino, instead of using keys per tetromino, I suggest using "steps" per tetromino. A step would combine inputs that can be pressed simultaneously or nearly simultaneously. To specify some precise conditions of a step: -You can only push a given input once per step. (So left-left and B-B are 2 steps.) -A period of mandatory waiting ends the step. (So DAS'ing to the wall or pressing down to lower a piece.) -A period of mandatory waiting is a step in itself. (So non-ARE-charged DAS is 1 step for pressing right and a 2nd for travel time...) -IRS'ing a piece and ARE-charging DAS do not count as a step. (...and ARE-charged DAS is a single step for travel time.) And it follows from the above but I'll make it clear: -an IRS'ed, unmoved piece is 0 steps -zangis are one step -double or even triple rotation are one step I... think that covers everything reasonably well. If you see any issues with the "step" system, please raise them. I've actually been half thinking of making a training program that criticizes a player's finesse by comparing it to the best using a step judgement system. At the very least it's a much better measure of finesse than kpt. Though, it becomes somewhat difficult to judge a "step" unless you are pretty familiar with a given rotation system. But if a representative sample of highly finessed SRS and TGM play were compared using steps, I would concede that one or the other was convincingly faster. Of course, this whole argument is pointless though because we all know my tetris clone that reduces all placements to 1 step is the fastest.
Do you consider we use the double rotation for the both? SRS and ARS? I don't understand in this kind of discussion (because my knowledge is very low in SRS) if you combine the motion of the 2 systems, for lockjaw as example..You talk about the IRS in SRS ? I learn SRS has IRS .. And can you explain me by the way why there is such a big gap between the torikan of ARS and SRS in TI ?
IRS is present in Ti regardless of the rotation system. In Ti, rotation system and lockdown system are conflated. "World" has SRS, hard drop, and Infinity, while "classic" has Ti ARS, firm drop, and step reset. A soft drop (to make up for the lack of firm drop) takes time, and because (AFAIK) lock delays are set the same on both lockdown systems, automatic locking will be slower on Infinity. Just be glad that Mihara resisted some of the recommendations of the guideline, such as 1/4G or slower DAS.
The wiki says Zangi-moves are made possible by sonic drops. Am I right in thinking we wouldn't be counting any of your one-step Zangi-moves in 20G?
the soft drop speed doesn't affect shirase, and no one who would make either torikan (be it shirase or master) is regularly allowing pieces to lock on their own.
In Heboris DOOM, I have to play extremely agressively at 0-400 to make the Torikan at 2:28, with a few tetrises here and there. My best time is 2:19 and that's due to making a lot of tetrises.
In TGM3 (20G), does anyone have already seen a non official and reliable video demonstration of SRS high speed ? this fact talk by himself. But i must admit it open more possibility than ARS. imo, most of those possibilities are totally useless in high speed since "top players" have to keep an optimized structure for a reduced set of high speed of move (as caffeine also noticed for wall-kick repertory). And ARS show is superiority here. Putting aside player old school preference, people rapidly feel and choose what is good for them... ps : SRS is used by the fastest japanese player in SAKURA mode because of instant lock.
i cannot say much to this thread, because i am neither highspeed in SRS nor ARS but my 50cent: at least the missing floorkick in TGM2 for the I piece is a BIG problem for most players except the true experts. how many times i fucked up my tgm death gameplay just because of not IRS the I-piece fast enough.. and having the I piece fat and long blocking several holes. but yeah, thats fixed in TGM3! wish i could play it sometimes.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PuySIYh9fyY shirase mode Ti world S13 in 5:19:25 and very non-official pretty fast, but i think a few are faster.
In my opinion, SRS 20G and ARS 20G have the same potentiel of max speed..But the strongest japan players are a bit more focused on ARS..So the best times are ARS..
