20G ARS Strategy - Chapter 0 - Introduction/Discussion

Thread in 'Strategy' started by Edo, 21 Jan 2008.

  1. Edo

    Edo a.k.a. FSY

    Seeing that 20G is the play mechanic that gives people new to TGM the most trouble (heck, even veterans find it hard once the speed ramps up...), I thought some sort of strategy guide would be very useful. Now, I know some of you are going to say that it's not really possible to put your 20G knowledge down in words, or even diagrams, but J.O. has done a pretty good job of it, and I'm sure we can do even better! We have an entire community of TGM players here, and some of us are actually not bad (DIGITAL, I'm looking at you, kid [​IMG] ). Regardless of our experience level, we can all make a contribution; either by volunteering our wisdom, or by asking the right questions.

    So. Fellas? Are ya with me?

    Good, I knew I could count on you! I've given this some thought over Christmas, and I think the biggest problem we'll face is actually keeping it stuctured, and preventing it from becoming a messy free-for-all. What I propose we do is break down the concept of 20G into its component aspects - i.e. break down 20G into 5 distinct, easy to learn "chapters".

    Here are my suggestions:

    Chapter 1 - Mobility

    Explaining simply how the pieces move, rather than going into detail of what constitutes a good or bad move. This will probably include a systematic coverage of wallkicks and synchros, IRS and the like. The importance of pyramid structure, with the peak at the 5th column, should also be covered.

    Chapter 2 - Perfect Stability

    This is where we cover what makes a good move, and how to play so as to maintain mobility indefinitely. I expect this will cover a lot of common patterns and themes, so we'll probably need to use either the fumen website, or jago's The TOOL, or some other alternative.

    Chapter 3 - Compromise

    This is all about knowing when to create a small hole that's easy to recover from, to save yourself from creating a much larger hole later on, that's impossible to recover from. Also knowing how to minimize damage, and take the lesser of two evils.

    Chapter 4 - Recovery

    How to regain stability after making a massive mis-drop, or playing a sub-optimal move that creates a big hole.

    Chapter 5 - Style, Finesse, and Hard Core Time Attack Techniques

    Everything you need to know about playing faster.

    These are only preliminary, so please suggest better Chapters if you can think of any. Perhaps Compromise and Recovery could be rolled into one, and maybe Stability needs more than just one chapter.

    Anyways, once we've agreed on the skeleton of the project, we'll then create a seperate thread for each Chapter, and start filling in the detail. I expect that despite our best efforts, things will inevitably get a little messy, so after we finish, the whole thing will get wiki-fied, and neatened up in the process. This could even become part of Petit's excellent TGM Guide, if he so wishes.

    We'll want to plan things as best we can, and I expect we'll also want to assess our progress along the way, so, we'll reserve this Chapter 0 thread for any questions/suggestions/messy discussion we want to have.

    So, does anybody want to start the ball rolling by asking a question or proposing different Chapters?
  2. okay, I have few questions.

    say you have stacked up and you find that you have a few lines with holes in them and the holes are disperse( like one hole near the right side then one clear on the other side). what is the best way to approach getting rid of these lines?

    another problem i have had with the holes is after getting rid of the holes i have found that i have wasted a good amount of time and all of the single and double line clears have given me very little points, would it be better to just keep stacking for tetrises on top of the lines with holes?

    Finally, say you do something dumb like me and this happens to you


    is there a twist to get over that misplaced I piece, not just for the L piece but for any piece?

    I'll have more questions for everyone soon.

    DIGITAL Unregistered

    My advice is to stack over the holes if they are very dispersed. You want to clear them with triples and tetrises. Take as much time as you need but just avoid getting tangled in a mess of singles and doubles. Try as best you can to not overstack when building the triples and tetrises.
    Yes there is for the J.


    DIGITAL Unregistered

    Here's a rough outline of the three areas I think are most important and most basic (subtopics are in no way final or even close to it). Is there any topic that doesn't fall in any of these?

    What can be done? (Mobility)

    - Basic rotational states

    - Spawn position

    - Spawn orientation

    - IRS

    - Wallkicks

    - Twists(with & without wallkicks)

    - Synchro

    - Block synchro

    - Double rotation techniques

    What should be done? (Stability)

    - Stacking patterns

    --- Hole Transfer

    - Pyramid

    --- High center

    --- Column specific

    - Overhang

    --- Edge

    --- Middle

    --- Line clear

    - Compromise

    --- Skimming

    --- Intentional platform/fill

    - Recovery

    How should it be done? (Efficiency)

    - "Freefall" finesse
    - Wall pushoff (wallkick) finesse
    - Block synchro
    - DAS finesse
    - Rotational state finesse

    --- Overhang "tuck"

    - Double rotation finesse
    - Level stop strategies
  5. Poochy

    Poochy Unregistered

    I think the best you could do is to place the L on the left, and hope for a J or I. (If the next piece is a T, Z, or O, place it in the divot and hope for a J or I after that.) The placement for a I should be obvious. For a J, DAS to the right, and while holding the DAS, rotate counterclockwise, clockwise, then counterclockwise again. That'll move the J over and into the valley on the right.

    This is actually another advantage of building with the empty column(s) on the right - due to the asymmetric wall kicks in ARS, the J block can actually wall-kick its way over a 1x1-sized bump when moving to the right.

    Here's an illustration using the TOOL:

    And some alternate placements:

    (First one is for if you get the I next, or if you don't think you can do that maneuver with the L fast enough. The others are for if you pull it off but the next piece is a T, Z, or O.)
  6. Amnesia

    Amnesia Piece of Cake

    On the first GIF, there is an useless "right" with the "L".

    You can directely perform a 180 and move it on the left..Then the end of the movement is correct..
  7. Edo

    Edo a.k.a. FSY

    Yes Amnesia, this is partly true, although there is a real danger of the L getting stuck in the 2 cell wide gap, due to not performing the 180 fast enough. Some players find that a slight "feint" in the opposite direction helps with the timing. I believe this technique was also used in jin8's Ti Master GM video, at level 345. Obviously, this technique would be useless at much higher speed 20G.

    So you're suggesting more of a "topic and sub-topic" approach, rather than having 5 or so big chapters. I think this is a good idea, and here's my suggestion for making it work: people volunteer to cover a sub-topic, and then create a thread for themselves, we'll try to keep each thread reserved for the author alone, in order to avoid the problem of "too many cooks spoiling the broth". If after they've finished, someone else feels more needs to be added, they can carefully add on more info to the thread, or if needs be, create another thread to provide an entirely different take on the sub-topic. I realize this may result in a lot of separate threads, but if we make a cenral, stickied index or contents, that links to all the separate threads, we should be able to keep it nicely organized and structured.

    What does everyone else think, does anyone want to suggest an improvement, or an entirely different way of doing things?

    P.S. I call dibs on edge overhangs, DIGI, you can have middle and line clears [​IMG]

  8. If we're going to have that many threads, I think it would be best to petition for a third subforum to keep this all in.
  9. sorry, go directly to jail. do not pass go.

  10. Edo

    Edo a.k.a. FSY

    I agree with caffeine on this one. Making a separate subforum devoted to ARS will most likely give people the impression that we're strictly an ARS/TGM community, which we're not. I'd say we have equal proportions of ARS and SRS lovers here, and we also have our fair share of folks that prefer the classic games. We should try not to lose this diversity.
  11. Poochy

    Poochy Unregistered

    Actually, that was a strategy I saw on a Japanese fansite (can't remember which one) as well as in Jin8's video. It allows you to load DAS while doing the 180, saving a few precious frames without having to increase the risk of hitting the second rotate a frame or two too late and getting the L stuck in the divot.
  12. Would it not be better to simply stick the project directly onto the wiki, marked that it's under construction?

    Any discussion could go here (split into several threads if needed) or on the discussion pages on the wiki.
  13. it would seem a lot easier to view the progress if it was in the forum, at the same time it would seem like it could congest other topics in the forum. Maybe have one thread that outlines the updates and progress being made on the wiki so people can see what has been added.

    I like the idea of the sub-topics but could it be done in a chapter fashion as edo first put. (ex/ Book 1 mobility, Ch.1 Basic rotational states) have it so new players would know what to work on first, that way they can get the basics down then progress to the more difficult stuff. It could give a way for new players to approach practicing 20g. just my suggestion.
  14. I like Digital's approach. It has "reference document" feeling that should reassure any 20G newbie.

    Red Star pointed out an important thing. We should include some sort of "learning path" that would guide them. Or at least something that prevent them from learning a non-obvious wallkick such as this one before even knowing how to use overhangs.

  15. But for me, those sorts of wallkicks are part of knowing how to use overhangs.
  16. Zednom

    Zednom Unregistered

    Yes. YES. [​IMG]

    You don't know how badly I need this guide right now.

    Could I request something in particular? For gifs that show animations on what to do in certain situations and how to rotate to get the right wallkicks and such, can those be posted in 1 "real time" speed of how fast you really need to do it, and 1 "slow motion" to really observe what's happening?

    If that's too much effort then no worries. Thanks for starting this up though, 20G is really killing me.
  17. Zednom:

    heh, i was having a problem telling what was going on in some of the gifs especially the ones with real quick movements and quick consecutive rotations.

    like he said, if it takes more effort to do then no worries. i'm more than willing to look at a gif a couple times to get it.

    Also, again with the chapter with sub topics, since this seems like a big project it might take some time. So, if it was split into chapters based on basics stuff progressing to hardcore stuff, then it would give a structure on what part of the guide to work on first. That way the guide doesn't have the parts about finesse and time saving strategy done before it has what rotations are possible and how to approach stacking. just my suggestion.

    DIGITAL Unregistered

    I normally don't like making animations anyway. I can understand the advantage of both freeze frame diagrams and animations but I prefer the former for the ease and clarity (not that an animation isn't clear in every case).
  19. Something I find very useful for learning 20G ARS is training in Lockjaw. Using the settings for Death on the Simulation Settings wiki page, I just change Lock Delay to Manual lock. Then I have the freedom to not only see which moves and rotations are possible, but feel them in a hands-on sort of way.
  20. Edo

    Edo a.k.a. FSY

    This is definitely possible. I wouldn't exactly say I'm very familiar with The TOOL (the program used to make all those fancy gifs), but I believe that it's very easy to simply increase the delay on each frame.

    This is a really great idea. I'm of the opinion that when training, piece placement should always be a cognitive process. Set the lock delay as high as you want; give yourself all the time you need to decide on what you think is the best placement. It doesn't matter if you turn out to be wrong, as long as you're actually engaging your brain. As you get more confident, crank up the speed to force yourself to think faster.

    Okay, on with the project. I think no matter what approach we take, it's clear that the first "section" or "chapter" will deal with mobility. If people are in agreement, we could make a Chapter 1 thread now and begin work. And then whilst we're busy with that, we can continue thinking about the best way forward for when we finish the first part.

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