Video - Twin Galaxies & Tetris Concept.

Thread in 'Discussion' started by boblaze, 3 Dec 2013.


Do you think video should be required for NES Tetris scores?

  1. Yes - Everyone's high score should be verified.

    4 vote(s)
  2. Yes - A certain benchmark, such as 900k, should be used.

    9 vote(s)
  3. No.

    8 vote(s)
  4. Don't worry about it, Twin Galaxies will be back and better than ever...

    0 vote(s)
  1. We all know that Tetris Concept has basically become the home to NES Tetris high scores and with the once again fail of Twin Galaxies (not that many people were still worried about Twin Galaxies), it seems that this will continue to be THE place to track NES Tetris high scores.

    With that, a few of us have been talking about having video for verification for quite some time, mostly at the Portland get together. I understand the view of the site has always been that it's just a fun place for Tetris people to get together and share info and scores, but as they say, "some people are born great, some people achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them".

    As Ben said, as Tetris continues to grow, it's going to be important to have a standard of scoring set into place for the new people that are constantly coming in. The current community standard seems to have gotten a bit lax... in public, with people continuing to call for the need of video behind the curtains. The point I've always brought up, was that if the three best people to ever play the game (Thor, Supa, and Jonas) were held to this gold mark of video standard, why are others not held to the same? Not to mention, every other gaming community pretty much demands the same of their records/achievements. Also, as Ben brought up, there could just be a good benchmark set, such as 900k, where video would be required (which would be my vote).

    I thought a poll would be in order to see what others think, this is solely about NES Tetris and maybe NES Tetris 2.

    I'd like to hear some responses as to why you voted the way you did, especially if you vote no.
  2. well said, and i totally agree. there is, as far as i can see, no reason whatsoever to NOT have a video verification system. as well know images are simply too easy to manipulate. we should have future submissions include the following:

    1) full game from beginning to end
    2) a shot of the machine after the game

    i dont care so much for the no pausing rule since i dont think pausing affords you any type of advantage, and in fact makes it harder to return to the game after unpausing (since it feels to me that you lose DAS after unpausing). i do think the more videos one posts the more likely they are to be accepted into the community though so maybe all games 700k and up should be submitted though instead of just those over 900k.
  4. My thoughts on proof go a little like this:

    We should be welcoming, therefore anyone at any score should be allowed

    We should require little more than claims from 0-300k.

    We should require picks from 300k to 800k.

    We should require video from 800k up (or 900, I'm flexible to ambivalent on the exact numbers for all these actually).
  5. I agree with Ben's layout with the idea that anyone who is posting 300K+ is likely going to try to max it out at some point. (And we'd get a video then.)

    The only drawback I can see to that is if there is suddenly a flood of 300-800k scores. "Faking" an 800K score wouldn't even get someone into the top 25. Not saying couldn't happen of course - people are weird.
  6. I like Ben's new idea.
  7. Personally I don't think that anything should require verification of any kind.

    That said, people will naturally only take serious records as seriously as the evidence that accompanies them. And good players will naturally want to record their play and share it of their own free will.
  8. i voted for that everyone's high scores should be verified but i'd like to change it to verification of 900k+ scores only. i was a little surprised to see some max-out scores here that had no video proof. did i believe those scores to be genuine? maybe, maybe not. but i feel like if you're going for a high score or a max-out, you should record your games, especially if you're going to post your scores on a gaming forum where video proof is common. why leave any doubt?
  9. Muf


    I'm with colour_thief. I don't think it should be necessary, as it historically never has. Pretty much everyone who posts properly impressive records posts proof of it, unless it's a marginal improvement and they've already proven they're capable of such feats. It feels natural and provides a low entry barrier to posting records. Someone might shave seconds off their time but only have a shaky mobile phone photo to show for it.

    That said, some of the improvements planned for TC 3.0 include more organised leaderboards that allow for filtering rankings by whether or not they have proof/verification. That way, people can decide for themselves what they consider authoritative or not. The verified rankings will most likely be significantly shorter than the full leaderboard though.
  10. Speaking as someone who maxed NEStris long ago (15+ years) with no video proof I think that video proof should be required for 800-900+. The reason being, no one can question it. It prevents any bickering ("That photo looks doctored to me." "You calling me a liar?"), and cameras are so cheap and readily available that it should be easy to do. YouTube is freely available to everyone and there are other sites as well.

    The highest score I can prove with a picture is 484,575. As far as I'm concerned what I did 15 years ago doesn't count. No proof, no high score. This is just my opinion though as a personal standard for myself.

    For most Twin Galaxies records, video proof was a necessity as there was only one World Champion due to score-rollovers - the highest score was virtually limitless. Because NEStris has a high score cap, it's more of a personal challenge than a true "high score". TGM1 by contrast goes by time completed. If I said I got Gm in 9:30:51 would you believe me and post the score without any proof? How about with just a screenshot? How would K feel about that?

    Just my thoughts.
  11. The title of the thread asks about TG and TC. So I can't answer the poll until I get more info about what we are asking. I think TG goes without saying: if you want an official record and a certificate (by the way I paid for a certificate for my SNES score right before TG changed ownership and never got it) then you definitely need video proof. But as far is this forum is concerned...that's more muddled.

    Personally, for the two "unverifieds", I have no problem accepting their scores. Quaid scored a 900k+ for qualifying. You have to be nails to do that. And I have seen a bundle of vid's of Skouie scoring over 900k. Any 900k game could easily be a max out with a touch more luck.

    On the other hand, it is odd--to say the least--that neither of them have videos. Quaid says he did it like three times now, so why wouldn't he record one of those, especially considering the public opinion on video proof? Skouie recorded hours and hours of play leading up to his max, so why didn't he have his max recorded? And speaking of--who the heck would record so much video, and then suddenly decide to stop recording right before achieving the two holy grails of NES Tetris (max and Level 30). Actually, now that I have all this down in words from my own hand, I am starting to reconsider my stance......:facepalm:

    But I will say this.

    I play differently depending on whether or not I am recording my games. For instance, when I am recording, sometimes I do something incredible, and say "Gee I hope this turns out to be my max out" and of course then I try too hard and fail. I have fought and struggled with this game for over ten years. For me, maxing out was about proving that I can face failure, and even give up on myself, and still climb out of the wreckage and overcome my shortcomings. So I stopped recording for a while, because I really didn't care of anyone *believed* that I had done it, I just *needed* to do it. In fact, I more or less did it once: my 965k game, I had a tetris set up with 229 lines, but the damn longbar never, ever came...I didn't screw up or choke or anything, the game just didn't let me do it, I did everything possible but nothing could have been done. Ah, now I am rambling :oops:


    For me, I have no problem with established, high-level players saying that they maxed out but didn't record it. If you have no proof of *any* high level skills and can't produce any proof, I wouldn't accept your claim to a max out ( or any other high scores), I would simply politely inform you that you played the wrong version of Tetris for NES. And I will add one more thing: if I were to have happened to max out while not recording, I definitely would have done a "proof-after-the-fact" video...before shutting my game off, I would show a video of the cart and system and controller, just so everyone could see I didn't have anything fishy going on.

    Of course, I am the wrong person to talk about this: I stood up in front of the screen and started celebrating before my longbar was locked in and the score change was never recorded! :sowsuser:

    I also wanted to mention how *happy* I am that I recoded! I have watched it four times now, and it only happened yesterday! Is that weird? Did anyone else watch theirs over and over???
  12. K


    By beeing there since quite some time, most of poster are thrusted here. As long as we see some background and sometime video of your performances evolution, i will not doubt about your score even if they are better than mine. For example Edo TGM 20G time attack (years 9min 18 sec) was the best for years and i (and other too) never questionned about even if there is no video (or maybe i missed something :p ).
    it's just too bad it was not recorded for "community posterity"..
  13. @josh- i have watched your video more than a dozen times, and surely cherish it only slightly less than you do. it represents a perfect, surreal, decades long struggle's culmination. years of playing this game were justified in that one single shining moment. it made me so happy. everyone at my school asked me if i was upset you got there first but all i could say was "NO!" anyone who actually proves they achieved this pinnacle goal is worthy of celebration and i bear no grudge. in fact it makes me more excited to follow suit. i can only imagine once i do it (if i do it) i will watch it endlessly too!
  14. I find it interesting that all the big time NES players are pretty much pro video and the ones that aren't are anti-video. Tolles says he's anti-video but describes precisely why there needs to be video in his explanation.

    Josh, you mention about TG obviously needing video and then say that we don't on TC, my point is that TC has basically become the TG for Tetris and therefore should hold higher accountibility for records.

    Also, if non-video max-outs are allowed on the scoreboard then surely Don and anyone else who claims to have maxed rightfully belong there as well.
  15. There are plenty of great points in favor of video, so I'll add little other than a vote in the affirmative.
  16. Muf


    I think the difference is that TG is/was Guinness certified.
  17. Ok. So I've been thinking. In the context of "competitive" classic Tetris, there should be video proof. I just said it myself. It is *hard* to play your best when that camera is on: you can feel all those future eyes on you, judging your moves, waiting to be impressed by you.

    Also, going off another thing I said recently, if you get a max-out, and you are not recording, you are doing a disservice to yourself. I am so very happy that I did record that!

    I voted for the 900k option. But I would put that bar at about 850, I think. But that vote is directed at the *competition* aspect of playing.

    So what I am saying is, that as far as the competitive nature of our current classic Tetris community goes: if you didn't record it, it doesn't count *competitively*. I have no problem accepting unverified maxes from highly skilled players--I am happy for them that they achieved that--but in the competitive aspect of it, you didn't do anything if you didn't put yourself on display while doing it.
  18. I'm really glad now I never paid TG to list anything.

    Maybe a long shot, but I wonder if we could get The Tetris Company to keep "official" Tetris records/accomplishments? They really should want to list all records at A huge percentage of their business must ultimately come from people who get started playing because they want to see if they can beat a high score.

    I suppose Guinness could take over record listings themselves, but I assume there is a reason they didn't want to double their workload by administrating thousands of video game records in the first place.

    Not that this site isn't good enough to be the ultimate authority on Tetris records, it's just that having a more established name to list and back up records can only help encourage more play.
  19. Well in that vein, could become the Official Guinness authority for Tetris much in the same way that TG was. TC would just have to draft up a contract with Guinness. And if TC could get the Tetris Company's blessing, all the better. Assuming that TC would want to take on that workload.

    I think the main issue behind people not wanting to require a video is because they're afraid we'll lose the sense of community that we have now. That's a legitimate worry to be sure. But I think it's more dangerous to have amorphous rules out there. For instance, K suggested:

    But "some background" is a very subjective value depending on the scorekeeper at the time. I think that's more likely to cause arguments and hurt feelings. Video = no question.
  20. It's simple. Don't require scores to be verified in order to be on the scoreboard. However, the ones that are verified will get an asterisk or bold or something (along with a link to the video), so it's clear which ones are 100% legit. People that take this seriously enough will go that extra mile (as they already have), and a filtering aspect on the scoreboard can be present for those that want to see it.

    It seems like everything I've said is already being planned for the new scoreboard, so bravo!
    There are no flaws with this system!

    Don't pull a Twin Galaxies and alienate people that want to compete in a game because they don't want to jump through hoops so they can get a score in their favorite video game. We need to keep interest in this series alive! Not punish people that don't care about recording.

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