TGM Gameplay considerations ~ Help me write an article Vol.1

Thread in 'Discussion' started by PetitPrince, 15 Feb 2007.

  1. I am presently writing an article for Grospixels, a french (retro)gaming site (great community, aware of what videogame are [their tagline is quite explicit: "The first 100% french website about videogames"] and drawn by a true love of them (it's the only place where I hear that game are practiced, not played [​IMG] ) ). This article is about the TGM series.

    In this article, I talk about TGM's gameplay, its focus on high speed gaming, how it evolved toward that goal, and an outro about the Tetris Company, how Henk Rogers views about Tetris are radically different (and I have to say, worse) from Mihara's and Tetris' current situation (even if I already talked about that, thanks again colour_thief [​IMG] ) .


    I plan to translate this article in English (and I will need a second read ^^), but right now, I've got some questions:

    1. I've got nothing about TGM1 history. What motivated its development ? Apart from TGM, is Mihara known for something else ?
    2. What are TGM3 game modes ? Easy, Master, Sakura, Shirase ? Is that all ? No T.A. Death for those who can't stand the infernal rhythm of Shirase ? No TGM+ nor Double mode ?
    3. TGM3's Sakura mode: what is specific about this mode ?
    4. ARS: what is better in this system (compared to other systems, say SRS) ? What are its advantages in 20G ? (compared to other systems)
      (I'm talking about rotations system, not what surrounds it (-> lock delay) )
     
  2. ARS is more traditional, so some people claim it's more instinctive. I've stayed away from that argument, though. The way ARS kicks down allows for a few kicks not possible with other systems. ARS uses a thought-out color scheme (I guess). SRS also uses a thought-out color scheme, but different. ARS sonic drop is, I guess, useful in low gravity, but I'm convinced soft/hard is more ideal and faster than sonic/soft.
     
  3. Back in the late nineties, there was a popular TV variety show called Gotsu E Kanji, in which the show hosts occasionally played Tetris against each other on air. Arika was originally internally developing a versus-oriented home console game inspired by that show, with lots of items, PaRappa the Rapper-like characters, and bells & whistles. When they talked with the show's hosts however, they stated that they'd like more of a vanilla game since the beauty of the game lies in its simplicity. In the end, the show folded without Arika's game materializing.
    About half an year later, there was some incident that irked Mihara (specifics are not mentioned), which made him decide to develop a game for the arcades. The "simplicity" quote by the TV show host still stuck with him, which influenced his design of the overall game, while the versus parts were carried over from the unreleased console game.
    Aside from TGM, Mihara was in the development team of the original Mega Man back when he was working for Capcom.

    No Death, no TGM+, no Doubles. There was another mode called Kamui that was seen in a couple pre-release location test versions, but removed from the final game.
    It is a mode to clear specified lines from levels of pre-built stacks, similar to Flash Point. There is a strong focus on time attacks. Unlike the other modes, the sequence of blocks is a fixed sequence which loops around, and during the interval between levels, the user can cycle through the sequence using the hold button. Therefore, the game can be played in a predetermined manner. This allows players to look at the sequence and map out their own action patterns out of the game, then try to break records by rapidly executing those patterns that they designed.
    Whatever I say here will invoke others to lash out denying. Regardless:

    "ARS" should be avoided as a term to refer to Arika's implementation in general to avoid ambiguity, as the only time the word was used officially was in TGMA where many surrounding aspects were different from what was usually used in the series. Also, TGM/TAP and Ti/TGMA have slightly different wallkick rules.

    Anyways, Aside from the oft-mentioned relative predictability (less exceptions to rules, like the feasibility of moves being determinable with less examination of the existing stack, and many moves being executable with both rotation directions) and ease of memorization, there's a couple other things:

    The default rotation hugs the floor, allowing pieces to rotate with no wallkicks involved. This prevents awkward moments like rotated pieces showing up midair for a split second then catching itself and slamming down again.

    The downward default states allow players to use DAS to slide and "snap" or "hook" pieces into places (that is, having a perfect fit with no possibility of horizontally slipping) at 20G more often than in upward default states, reducing opportunities of hesitation or mis-input slippage. These add up in a situation where hesitation equals death.
     

  4. The biggest difference is that it makes playing at 20G fun because it's actually difficult. Anyone who's any good at Tetris can last forever at 20G with SRS and a 7-piece bag, and it's pretty boring, isn't it?
     
  5. "The biggest difference is that it makes playing at 20G fun because it's actually difficult. Anyone who's any good at Tetris can last forever at 20G with SRS and a 7-piece bag, and it's pretty boring, isn't it?"


    he did say "not what surrounds it (lock delay)." noone can last forever on any system with lowering lock delay. lasting forever has to do with floor kick restrictions, reset conditions, and lock delay.
     
  6. I'd say, even though TGM is quite demanding on your mind, it is noticeably less demanding on your dexterity. For an extreme example take GB Tetris with the intense (controlled, skillful) button mashing required to play at high speeds. Other Tetris games require this also to an extent. High speed 20G is very fluid, because of the short DAS and the ways of catching pieces on the ground.
     
  7. Amnesia

    Amnesia Piece of Cake

    Very good initiative petit prince.. [​IMG]
    Can you will put the link where we can read this article??

    I'm already on gropixels..

    That will appear in "dossiers"?isn'it?
     
  8. K

    K

    About SRS :

    In my opinion SRS infinite spin, is not something that disturb me much. You are not obliged to use it after all. thus, seeing on SRS all players level able to use the same system is better than ARS, witch is too much elitist.


    But 2 things disturb me much :

    - The flagrant lack of advanced self-improvement insufflation on most every game labeled SRS and TTC. Tetris is a fashionable item.

    - Wall-Kick rules applied to SRS, are arbitraty excentric. Coupled with infinite spin and 20G, strange and exotic move are possible, but without easy logical understanding.Even by avoiding direct comparison to ARS, some basic placement situation are frustrary impossible. And this become ridiculously annoying and blurry with I,S & Z piece and their mirror orientation, witch have different wall-kicks behaviors but no visual differentiation.






    TTC = Nike marketing speech.
     
  9. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    You are obliged to use repeated applications of left/right if you just got lightning+mushroomed in TDS Wi-Fi 4-player.
     
  10. Thanks guys, that was very helpful (Needle, your encyclopedic knowledge of TGM frightens me ; May I ask where you learnt all that ? Mihara's blog ?). Please continue if you have something to add.


    I personally find very difficult to not use infinite spin, especially in a panic state. Temptation is too great... (oh, btw, thanks for bringing forth the idea of TGM elitism, that's a subjet I might talk about in my article [​IMG] )

    (j'en ai strictement aucune ide: d'un ct, il s'agit d'un article sur une srie de jeu, et ya place logique serait dans "article" et d'un autre, j'ose penser que mon analyse des mchaniques de jeu est assez pousse pour pouvoir avoir le mrite de paratre dans "dossier"...)


    The article will be available in my blog once I finish it. I will then translate it, so TC's members can correct any mistakes that is still in. I'll then send it to Laurent (grospixels' admin) and post it in the wiki (I request a locked page), so we can provide a decent link to Joystiq, Kotaku and other gaming blog/site, and let the world know about the depressing state of Tetris today. Then, women, fame, riches ! *insert evil laugh*



    ------



    Right now, I'm writing about how TGM is focused on high speed play. So far, I said that:

    • the piece randomizer doesn't allow fatal sequences (S,Z,S,Z ....)
    • the lock delay permit 20G play
    • IRS is a tool to give the player more possibilities of placing pieces
    • many details are made for 20G play (the white pixel surrounding the stack, pieces color, pieces sound signal

    I'm now asking myself whether Sega-Rotations-with-some-modifications-by-Arika (:p) is made for high speed play, or is just a mere rotation system like other which have a surprisingly good behavior at high speed.

    My question "What are its [ARS] advantages in 20G" still stand, but another rise: Can we imagine a better rotation system (+wallkicks) ?
     
  11. tepples

    tepples Lockjaw developer

    Instead of having an admin protect the page, anybody can grab a permanent link to one revision by clicking "history" and then clicking the top date in the list.

    Runs of three snake pieces are possible but rare (about 1 out of 500 pieces) in Random Generator, and runs of four are even rarer. I will grant that forcing the first piece to I, J, L, or T (as the TGM randomizer does) improves perception of the sequence among people who don't know fiddlesworth's opening.

    That or a compensation for the lack of floor kicks.
     

  12. Every time someone brings up the SZ phenomenon you pretend it doesn't exist by calling it rare or pretend it's no big deal by claiming Hold will solve all your problems. We get your opinion. The reality of the situation however is that it's real and it sucks. If you played with a TGM-style randomizer, and I mean really played it (to the point where it affects your stacking style), then it would stick out to you quite a bit as something that hinders play.


    And floor kicks are worthless because they are slow. I pieces excepted.


    No offense Tepples but you don't have much to contribute to this thread considering you refuse to play TGM at all. The best you can give is the outsider's perspective of "why does *this* do *that* to gameplay", which is distinctly different from "SRS does *blah* just as well with its feature of *crap* ". In fact, an outsider's perspective would probably be appreciated given the nature of the article.
     
  13. "you pretend it doesn't exist by calling it rare or pretend it's no big deal by claiming Hold will solve all your problems."


    lol are you serious? i never realize i'm dealing with szs or szsz or the inverse unless i see it coming and think "oh, it's szsz." i can't think of one single time it's given me a problem. they're really not any more difficult to deal with than any other situation. in fact, they're easier because you're getting the same pieces over again (and you're the one who advocated that as being a benefit!).
     
  14. jujube

    jujube Unregistered

    fiddlesworth's opening? that guy is stupid [​IMG] it doesn't even work very well against fast players and it's too easy. i saw that in digital's game against triple lei he used the platform method and did just fine. i've been using craigss' t-spin single against the wall to start a back-to-back streak and that works too. [​IMG]

    edit: i like fiddlesworth's opening. he demonstrated to a T the necessity for a slow drop speed in multiplayer with 7 bag, SRS, T-spin rewards--any faster and the game may have been broken.
     

  15. Whatever. I'll pay attention when a TGM player disagrees with my assessment and no sooner. If you're not interpreting the SZSZ problem in the context of high speed 20G, your conclusions aren't worth squat. You can play quite fast Nick, but I don't think you've ever had to deal with something as unforgiving as Death Mode. I'm not pointing that out to claim I'm better than you, I'm just saying you're missing the context to interpret the problem.


    And as for the "duplicate benefit effect" or whatever you want to call it... Scanning the screen for placement opportunities marginally faster, as would happen with duplicate pieces, doesn't counteract the time loss from holes if there were no good places to put it. [​IMG]
     
  16. SZSZ isn't a big deal in SRS for obvious reasons. Under TGM rules it would be annoying to deal with regularly.


    The big difference between the TGM randomizer and SRS when playing at high speed 20G, is that the pieces must placed without hesitation and without floorkicks or foreknowledge of more than the next piece (except for TGM3/TGMA).


    Under SRS you have time to think, if even for a second, on the best way to deal with a difficult piece.
    This statement is simply nonsense when applied to high speed TGM. I wouldn't expect anyone to recognize "oh that's SZSZ" in advance, but that's not the point. Having to deal with several pieces in a row with no obvious placement (expecially as your options are much more limited in 20G with TGM) is unreasonable if expected too often in an unforgiving game structure.
     
  17. i play heboris lite sometimes: srs with a floor kick limit in 20g. 14 frame lock delay or so with no other in between delays. i know what forced speed is like. i didn't encounter any problems with szsz. if szsz is incompatible with tgm type play, then it'd have to be for another reason besides 20g/floor kicks. from my experience, i just can't except that it's a huge deal.
     

  18. That "forced speed" is completely weaksauce compared to TGM. Floorkicks and move-reset locktime completely change the 20G experience. I will admit that the settings you use are much better at forcing speed than, say, Tetris DS. But they don't compare to TGM, which is far less forgiving and demands impeccable technique.


    I'm reminded of a year ago when I explained to you the special TGM moves such as those possible with fast DAS. My words really didn't sink in at all, and it wasn't until like 9 months later that you finally saw their usefulness while playing Heboris. I propose something to help you "get it" this time once again:


    If you want, I can use those SRS settings and you can use maxspeed Death Mode settings and we can compare average survival time. Even though you're probably the better player, I'm quite confident I could blow you away with such a competition.


    Perhaps then you'll respect TGM a little more, even if you can play SRS 0G faster than Death Mode's top speed.
     
  19. Good idea. Alternative: I can make an html version of the article, then we could link/host in TC's main page (it's a little bit presomptuous though ^-^)

    My bad. The description of what I wrote wasn't quite accurate. The S,Z,S,Z sequence was just an example. Waht I actually wrote was that a repeating pattern in pieces distribution is annoying and.. Well, judge what I wrote by yourself (rough translation):

     
  20. What do you mean by limited floor kicks?


    Playing with no floor kicks whatsoever makes a huge difference to your placement options and stacking considerations.
     

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