I made this thread because i was curious about the "rivalry" between these rotation systems, so i made this questions 1 - There's really some competition between ARS and SRS? 2 - Why some guys just hate SRS? 3 - What "ARS" made to "SRS", or vice-versa, to have such a rivalry? Sorry if i didn't manage to express myself well, but my english isn't very good, and sorry if this is a stupid question, i just don't know tetris history very well...
I don't think there's a rivalry, it's just a matter of personal preference. I won't ever play an SRS game again, but that's just because I'm too used to ARS. I don't see any point in playing both. TAP and TI will keep me happy until I die. I agree with the general sentiment that SRS isn't very challenging in singleplayer modes though. I think SRS feels kinda... sloppy.
I think SRS is for multiplayer and ARS is for singleplayer, but for me, i prefer SRS because, well, i think ARS is too hard for me, or i'm just too used with it, but i think mastering multiple rotation system helps you understand their weakness and strenghts
SRS was designed to look pretty and catch casual gamers, in my opinion. It's very intuitive at low gravity rates, and looks pretty with smooth rotation. But when the speed gets up there, it has to use these crazy kicks and move reset rules to remain playable. It is still playable without the wallkicks and move reset, but only at about 1G (drop 1 cell per frame). Super Tetris 3 proves it. But try playing it under 20G (instant falling pieces)? Forget it. ANYONE can clear marathon on Tetris DS with sufficient practice. People who cut their teeth on more difficult tetris games in the past will most likely clear it on the first proper attempt once they get used to up for hard drop and find out they can just keep mashing the button to get time to think (even with an O piece!). ARS was designed to be playable under high speed conditions from the ground up, yet remain a challenge. Pieces don't rise off the ground when they rotate (well, except for the I, which really does need to), which allows the game to continue to use the step reset system, which means lock delay only resets when the piece moves downwards. It also allows use of a much simpler kick system. Upward kicks are only required on two of the pieces, and are effectively limited to once per piece.(you can actually make a T kick up twice, but it's not very useful) Before TGM3 they weren't allowed at all. So for single player survival games, SRS with infinity and move reset cheapens the challenge, and makes it wayyyyy too easy. This doesn't apply to multiplayer, though. None of the "problems" matter, because you have the speed of your opponent to keep you on your toes. While there is nothing preventing use of ARS in multiplayer, SRS's wallkicks provide more recovery possibilities, and allow many more spin moves, so it's not really a fair fight to pit the two rotation systems against each other in typical multiplayer conditions. So this is the reason for the "SRS hate" among single player tetris players.
You're right, SRS uses a lot of kicks and spins, but this makes you think more after placing a piece to see all the possibilities, like if you use some combination of kicks and spins, you can put pieces in seemingly impossible places. Sadly, it also open space for "panic rotating" that is when you just keep mashing rotation to climb to higher places or try to make some time It's cool when you realize you made your first t-spin triple (I LOLed when i made my first) Also you say WOOT? when you teleport a piece to a hole using 180 rotation I also think this is the reason for slower gameplay... I played Nullpo's Super3 rule, is hell hard on high gravity! LOL you're right, O piece dosen't even rotate! Right! in Multiplayer, Rotation systems MUST be the same to be fair game. i think rotation system with more possibilities make up for more intresting multiplayer You will not hate me if i use SRS in singleplayer modes, will you? Sorry if i don't use ARS, it's because it is too hard for me, and furstrate me many times when i play with it...
I would say that you would miss one of the most beautifully designed Tetris ever. Or, if you permit a culinary analogy, it's like refusing to go to a Michelin three stars restaurant and eat at McDonald's instead. About the difficulty: ARS has its roots in Sega's arcade Tetris and follows the arcade philosophy, that is "make a game as hard as possible but always leave a way out for the player (so he will continue to play)". The main line of thoughts to have is that if you fail that's because you haven't tried hard enough . It may seems harsh (and surely is one way or another), but it will be 100 times more satisfying to know that you succeed because of your raw skill alone than because you bought that DAS settings because you grinded enough coins/rubies/etc... Also, what frustrates you ? Tetlag ? Or is it a specific point in ARS design ?
Well, i think i got addicted to McDonald's secret recipe: I got too used to SRS, but i think changing some eating habits will help me get used to TGM BTW, i made another topic regarding TGM emulation so i think i will get started! About what frustrates me? I think it's just cause i'm too used to SRS, but about some pieces' rotations (like T rotation) is a little strange to me, also the CW and CCW rotation is the reverse of SRS but i will train to get used to ARS and maybe post my records on the forums! BTW, i don't have PC gamepad or arcade stick, but playing with the keyboard is too hard compared to the arcade machine? And, What is Tetlag?
Tetlag is a term created by Caithness on the now forgotten blockstat.org IRC that describe the difficulties one can experience when shifting from one rotation system to another. In other words, exactly what you are going through .
I don't hate players. It's not your fault you found tetris after the Guideline took hold. The principle behind ARS is simple. pieces stay at the bottom of the box in which they rotate. The principle of step reset is also simple. A piece hits the stack. in a short time, it will lock and stick to the stack. But if you move it to the side, and there's space for it to fall, it will start falling down, and the lock delay time resets,in case you need to move the peice more. Now if the T didn't stay at the bottom of the box, you would be unable to rotate it at all if it landed upside down, without moving it up one square. Then if you rotated it a bit more, it could drop down another square, and reset the lock delay again. By moving the piece to the bottom of the box always, this is prevented. The T piece does look weird when doing this, and can stick when you don't expect it to in TGM and TAP, because rotation will be blocked if you try to rotate it to the upside down position and a point is stuck in a hole. That, and the I rotation are the hardest things to get used to.
Thanks for the tips, Zaphod77, i think this will help me on TGM. BTW, what the best game to start, TGM or TAP?
I'd also like to mention that I've played Tetris on and off since 1987, including Tetris DS, and it was only when I tried TGM that I REALLY got hooked to Tetris. TGM pushes you to constantly improve, unlike classic Tetris. You keep impressing yourself at how incredibly fast you can play after only a month or so. When I played Tetris DS, I didn't like it when the game sped up, in TGM I prefer 20g. And my friends love TGM too. That's why it's so shameful that TGM can't leave Japan.
Not even one of my friends like Tetris......not even my sister (my sister just HATES tetris), i think the my only friends that like tetris are you This makes me glad about taking part on this community!
Hello Tiago Dutra, I'm not quite sure how long you have been here at tetrisconcept, but your profile says you have joined in late 2009. If you have been active for this long, there is no doubt you have seen a war between the two major rotation systems. Before I continue, please excuse my ignorance. I have detached myself from this community due to the exact reasons you have listed, as this is probably the first (and last) post I had and will make for some time. I am one of the very small handful of players here that use SRS. There is a huge amount of competition between ARS and SRS, to the point where it's a drama show. As the community has posted, SRS is moreover an "easier" rotation system to play with, in which I will agree with. SRS has been around in many of the tetris games I, personally, have played; therefore I was already used to this rotation system even before playing TGM related games. I play tetris for the fun of it, and I choose SRS because I am the most familiar and used to it. Your next question will probably be: "Why play TGM when you're playing tetris for fun?" Well, modern tetris games have become too easy, and quite boring. TGM gives me at least some goal to aim for, and brings the fun back into a tetris game. The thing is though, many of the players here don't understand some people play for the fun of it. Here at tetrisconcept, there are some people ready to buy a TGM arcade system because they are 10 seconds behind due to input lag. Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly fine to go and buy yourself an arcade, I myself might even buy a cabinet when I can afford one. I'm just not for the whole "competition" thing here that most of the community revolves around, very strictly at that. I don't know exactly why some people simply hate SRS, but I know what you are talking about. I'm being completely honest when I say I have been called some very rude and vulgar names for using SRS (which is why I have left this community). People come to the conclusion that because SRS is an easy rotation system, it makes all TGM modes super easy when using it. This is false. Anyone with a big ego here will tell you it's easy, and it's really not. The more correct statement would be "TGM using SRS is not as hard as TGM using ARS." It takes at least some skill to complete a Shirase/Speed Mania 2 game with SRS and the like. So, unlike the entire community here that is going to shove ARS down your throat, I'm going to say use the rotational system you enjoy and you feel comfortable with. This is a forum about TGM, not a forum about ARS. Anyhow, I was on your YouTube channel before, and I wanted to say very nice Extreme video you have there! Also, congratulations on your S2/Lv. 364 in TGM!
Adapted and expanded from an earlier conversation: I disagree. We all started playing because we found the game fun, of course. The reason people are willing to commit to a purchase of arcade hardware and the like is because they have begun to run into issues that they find make the experience less enjoyable. Also, I feel that the sense of "competition" you observe is better described as a desire to challenge and better one's self. Since many of the regular members that have stuck with this site over the years are of very high caliber, many of them have taken to friendly rivalry as one of the measures by which to set personal goals. Well, from an objective standpoint, it is very poorly designed. It has certain features that come in handy for low gravity optimizations, but it has many failings that should preclude it from being a universal standard. These shortcomings are why players are unhappy that it is being forced on us in most every game. Sorry, I disagree on this point, aside from some extreme cases. There are some things that can make the game hard regardless of rotation rules and lockdown mechanics (i.e. invisible rolls or the brutal lock delay of Shirase 1200), but overall I'd say that SRS does not put you in a position where you have to fully understand the ins and outs of 20G. I also think it gives you a lot of tools to avoid making difficult decisions should you not want to, and certainly allows you to stall and keep the game within your comfort zone in all but the most intense speeds. Sure, it still takes a decent amount of general Tetris skill to succeed, but to call a set of rules that allows someone to approach TGM3 GM when they cannot yet complete TGM1 anything other than brutally easy in comparison seems a bit dishonest. It really does let you sidestep learning about a very beautiful and intriguing aspect of the game. Again, sorry, but I don't think there is a significant enough distinction here; TGM is designed solely around ARS. It is fine if you enjoy playing it with SRS, but it is pretty incongruous with the spirit of the game and its design -- an afterthought rather than tightly woven into the framework of the series. You're still playing a fun, fast-paced Tetris game, but it's a bit of a departure from the rest of TGM. (Also, although it has seemed to turn out this way, TC wasn't intended to be "The TGM Forum," but the TGMers seem to be the folks that have mostly stuck around. We used to have a little bit more diversity before the split; we were starting to pick up more members focused on multiplayer versus before things got all out of whack.) This, however, is completely unacceptable. I really don't get why people feel that being on the internet entitles them to antagonize people just because they disagree with them. I'd like to think we can have civilized discussion here without alienating someone for their opinions about a _video game_, for heaven's sake. Hey, no one is holding a gun to your head. Many of us are just very passionate about the game and wouldn't want a budding TGM enthusiast to miss out on part of what makes the game so wonderful just by not knowing one way or another. I'm dismayed when someone refuses to give ARS a shot, but in the end I move on -- it won't kill me, at any rate. Sorry if this seems harsh or blunt. I don't mean any offense. If we don't agree on these points that's perfectly fine, but I wanted to be honest about it. ...aaaand now it is time to go write an essay for class tomorrow today.
