steve, the fun haver, makes a rare appearance on the forums to drop some sage wisdom on the tetris newbies
The distinction for me is what is going to give you longevity of gameplay. There's no rivalry as such between the two rotation systems, it's just that they lend themselves better to different things, and that causes something of a split. SRS is clearly the faster rotation system at 0G, because it has greater finesse, which means it's the obvious choice for multiplayer (that, and all the official games use it). If you want to become good at multiplayer, then at some point you're going to have to be using SRS, and you might as well start sooner rather than later. With multiplayer the challenge comes from the opponents you play against, so the rotation system doesn't make a huge difference aside from allowing you to compete without unnecessarily handicapping yourself. For TGM, ARS is the clear choice again. Partly because the official games use it, and partly because regardless of what Steve says, SRS TGM is piss easy. It might not be trivial to get the highest grades on some of the games, but for a huge portion of the grading system there's barely any difficulty whatsoever. You skip out the whole first year or so of continuous struggling improvement you get with ARS - where's the fun in improving if you get Death 499 after a month with SRS? Because it takes less time, and because it's easier, it cheapens the achievements themselves as well - Death Gm with SRS will never be as satisfying as with ARS. And SRS doesn't give any longevity to TGM. You talk about "fun" Steve, but I don't see how SRS TGM is fun in the long term. Short term, maybe, because you're just clearing all the modes without breaking a sweat, but you're going to run out of goals to aim at far more quickly, and from then on it'll just become grinding to get the time down, and grinding for the last few grades, most importantly grinding where you'll be improving, but won't be able to see it particularly well, unlike ARS improvement. There are guys here who have been playing ARS TGM for literally years, and are still going for grades which aren't the final Gm ones on most modes. Still going for the grades that are achievable by mortals, and which don't take months and months of barely any improvement to attain. SRS can't provide that sort of longevity, because everything is easier, and you'll achieve pretty much everything really quickly. Maybe it feels more fun than ARS, but that's just because you're not having to put in the work and the improvement at an early stage, and can just ride poor skill and luck to fairly high grades while you're still starting out. If you want to keep playing TGM in the long-term without getting bored and having very little to aim for, at some point you're going to have to switch to ARS. The notion that ARS isn't fun is stupid - there's no difference. It's just that ARS has its TGM enjoyment spread out over a far longer timespan than SRS does. If you don't enjoy endlessly grinding to shave seconds off completion times, then sooner or later you'll have to switch to ARS to keep it interesting, and it might as well be sooner. For people to say they won't play ARS because it's hard just seems daft to most of us - the whole reason we play it with ARS is because it's hard. What's the point in spending hours honing your skills on a game for years on end if you end up at pretty much the same skill level you had at the end of the first month or so. If you can get TGM1 S9 in SRS with only a few weeks of playing, then why bother putting any more time into it than that? Most of us here have the mentality of enjoying Tetris for the challenge, whatever challenge that might be. SRS really doesn't provide any sort of challenge (in single-player) except for when things start getting gimmicky and stupidly punishing. By using it you skip out the main challenge of TGM, and therefore the main enjoyment, as the majority of us see it. That and it just doesn't have the same elegance and fine play as ARS does - usually because SRS can achieve equivalent ARS grades with far less skill in the playing style. The longevity in SRS lies in multiplayer and 40Lines, and that's what it should be used for. And while I'll rail on people who use SRS in TGM, it's not because I'm against SRS itself (I'd definitely encourage it to anyone playing multiplayer) but because I don't see why anyone would seriously pick up TGM with SRS. It's not like you can't learn both rotation systems and have one for multiplayer and one for single player - it doesn't take that long to adjust. Just don't cross the streams.
Very passionning explanation Rosti. Mastering both ARS and SRS in TGM3 or even TGM2 modes can be a deep challenge. A few players can do that here, as I remember : DIGITAL, Kevin, and some other maybe, I prefer to not include me as loog as I need to cheat in reversing UP and DOWN for TI. Maybe ARS is more rude, more serious and less fun, but it is so more impressive and elegant, this aspect count a lot. Even when I watch a super japanese dude performing a hot game on TGM3 with world rule, I still have in mind that if the guy release his attention, he won't die thanks to the move reset and insane wallkicks..It automaticaly breaks the charm.
I think you've pretty much already met all the possible SRS goals. I bought an arcade board for TGM1 because the game feels like shit in MAME, not because I'm 10 seconds behind someone. I just don't want to play a game where I push the button and I have to wait more than a tenth of a second for the input to register. That's shitty. I'm pretty sure any rotation system that allows you to increase the lock delay by over 5x by simply mashing a rotate button on a piece that doesn't even rotate counts as making it very easy. That increases the lock delay limit on Shirase 1200 to over half a second! Well, sure, but if you're playing TGM1 or TGM2 with SRS you're not playing TGM.
OMG, when i went to the bed yesterday my post was the last one! When i woke up, all the sorts of posts talking about both rotation systems! Well, i'm pretty sure that i went to play TGM on MAME because I wanted, and not because the community forced me to it. I just wanted to try a new game that i heard about and thought it was cool. Nobody was mean with me only because i used SRS. Everybody has freedom to choose their own rotation system, and nobody can force someone to use certain rotation system. TETRIS is the main reason, and is what the forum is all about! ARS, SRS, DRS, *RS, are only parts of the game. Tetris DS, TGM, Nullpomino, Tetris Worlds, GB Tetris, Sega Tetris, are all TETRIS games, above all... In 1985, on the USSR, some russian computer engineer called Alexey Leonidovich Pajitnov created some computer game where the main objective was to stack pieces to form full horizontal lines, and named this game TETRIS. And that's what the forum is all about! Any game where stacking pieces to form lines is the main objective, is accepted and respected on this community! We should honor Alexey and his game for Electronica 60, and not discussing to see what rotation system, or game, is better than another. Behind all the graphics, rotation systems, sounds, controls, the line of code that says that when a line is completed, it is removed, and the stack above it will descend one line, is the same... I don't want to be mean, Steve, just my opinion. BTW thanks for viewing mah youtube channel!
Don't worry about it; I honestly agree with you 100 percent! Whichever path or whatever tetris game you decide to play, I wish you the best of luck. I'm off to disappear from these forums again, so take care, and good luck in your very bright tetris career!
Contrary to what Steve claims, there is not a "huge amount of competition between ARS and SRS"; it's actually a very minor thing. It just gets blown way out of proportion by players that develop a persecution complex and think they're being personally attacked when they're told that their favourite rotation system is not as good as some other rotation system.
So let's do some things... 1 - Rename the forum TGMconcept.net, including the domain name, and the Title Image (the one with the "human" evolution). 2 - Delete any topic about SRS or any rotation system other than ARS. 3 - Ban anyone that plays/likes any other games than TGM series. 4 - Delete all the Records an the "Competition" forum that are not from TGM games. 5 - Rename the Wiki "TGM Wiki", and delete all the Articles not about TGM, ARS or Arika. COME ON!!! This is a C-O-M-M-U-N-I-T-Y. It is about tetris, TETRIS. What are your arguments about this? Mines are on my previous post.
This topic has really no utility actually. There are no problem with SRS, only some people who dislike and not tolerate it. Personnaly SRS can be considered at much higher spher than 95% of people can understand here. Try to beat with ARS rotation the fastest 0-100 in SHIRASE WORLD, or try to get a MM sub 6 and then I will accept to hear critics on SRS. As long as there will be a clear curve of player's levels, SRS won't be a noob's game. I won't say the same thing for TETRIS DS where millions of people just clear it or full tspin it. But how many TI GM in WORD RULE ? not a lot.. They just felt oppressed alone. I was very happy before the split, I felt sad to see many strong player leaving to follow Blink. I prefer to accuse the global mess in TC than accusing people. If both community have not been able to live together, it can only be due to the forum interface which is to rubbish to assure a good and clean organisation. At a several moment TGM was more popular, and there was less SRS expression, a provisory period. So why did they just leave ? No idea..Except maybe the desire of one person to create and control a community of player.
That's irrelevant, because Ti GM is just credit roll stuff. That and the fact you actually need access to a Ti machine to do it. I'm pretty damn confident that if I put in even a fraction of the time I've spent on TGM into playing Ti with SRS then I'd be MM at least. SRS 20G is just too damn easy once you get used to it. Like I said, the top grades are difficult, but that doesn't stop the entire rest of the grade curve being totally easy. About 18 months ago (±6 months) I had five games on Death on Blockbox using SRS. I got a Gm run in those five attempts, and that's without any recent practice with SRS at the time. Compared to how long it takes in ARS, and still took me from that point, that's ridiculous.
I agree but how was your GMs ? 6:30 ? 6:40 ? I am pretty sure that if 309 spend the same time on this he will produce some SRS GM around 5:10-5:20, so I wanted to explain that SRS has also a deep perspective to evolve at high level. And maybe for you MM, but for me it will stay MK for a while because move reset or not, I can't complete a M ROLL today. so SRS here does not make things easier for me at my current state.
It'd be interesting to see graphs that show short term vs. long term improvement rates in ARS and SRS respectively, but as there is not enough available data for a study like that, alas. I would guess they would look something like this though:
There is something I don't understand. Why does the acceleration continu to decrease at the moment where the player in SRS decided to stop using move reset ? He should at this moment see his speed keep increasing thanks to the lock delays he removes in his style.
Not the moment where he decides to stop, but the moment where he has eliminated all traces of stalling in his playstyle, and there is no more speed advantage to gain from that.
