[T-Spins] Take a side --a decision must be made!!!

[colour_thief]

As per the topic title... no fence sitters. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

So, what's your opinion?

[Cubicz]

T-spin setups give way more points that consecutive Tetrises.

And the optimal strategy is to clear no lines while holding Down and mashing a rotate button... http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif


Exactly. I'm not interested in learning a broken strategy, like t-spins. I just don't like them, and I'd rather be able to tetris lots rather than abuse a silly game mechanic. What if the next big tetris game doesn't have t-spins? (although it probably will, if it isnt a TGM game.) it will almost certainly have tetrises though. and tetrises are just cooler.


This is all IMHO, btw.

[colour_thief]

T-spin setups give way more points that consecutive Tetrises.

And the optimal strategy is to clear no lines while holding Down and mashing a rotate button... http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Exactly. I'm not interested in learning a broken strategy, like t-spins. I just don't like them, and I'd rather be able to tetris lots rather than abuse a silly game mechanic. What if the next big tetris game doesn't have t-spins? (although it probably will, if it isnt a TGM game.) it will almost certainly have tetrises though. and tetrises are just cooler.

This is all IMHO, btw.


Not sure if you got what I was saying there, but you get points for soft dropping a piece. Combined with rotating up into the air repeatedly, you can get infinite points withouteven clearing a single line.


Anyways I agree with you 110%. T-Spin doubles are ok as a gimmick as far as I'm concerned. Just like cascading or squares. Hell, it's more interesting than most of the lame gimmicks in Tetris Worlds. I'm just unhappy that it seems to be a permanent feature. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

[Rosti LFC]

I like t-spins as a permanent feature. They add something, and encourage more intelligent building than just stacking with a hole at the side.


I really can't see them being dropped from future games.

[DIGITAL]

I like t-spins as a permanent feature. They add something, and encourage more intelligent building than just stacking with a hole at the side.

I really can't see them being dropped from future games.


I agree, it's not like T-Spins prevent you from playing the other way. I find it interesting to have more than one style of playing even if I don't utilize every technique.

[Pineapple]

I like the theory of rewarding T-spins. I just don't like the implementation...

[colour_thief]

It's just so arbitrary. Why not reward other line clears like S and Z triples?

[DIGITAL]

It's just so arbitrary. Why not reward other line clears like S and Z triples?


There's no reason not to or at least that's what I think. That would be the next logical step.

[Pineapple]

It's just so arbitrary. Why not reward other line clears like S and Z triples?

Better still: reward every twist clear.


How about this idea: Garbage is 0/1/2/4 for normal clears, and 1/2/3 for twist clears. Twists are detected using the "immobile" algorithm.

[colour_thief]

Tetris is iconic as a simple concept and a pure videogame. One of the purest, certainly. I'm rather fond of its elegance, and in my opinion layering crap like t-spins, unpredictable wallkicks, and tacky themes gives the game an... unflattering physique. I have no qualms with people who want to hit it, but to suggest that it should replace all versions as the status quo is rather frightening. Diversity is the spice of life etc. etc.


So yeah I object to it on the grounds of inelegance. TGM proves that you can be deep and elegant, and Sega Tetris (DC) shows how there are other interesting VS gimmicks.

[caffeine]

"I agree, it's not like T-Spins prevent you from playing the other way. I find it interesting to have more than one style of playing even if I don't utilize every technique."


But you're wrong. T-Spins do prevent you from playing the other way. There is only one style of playing. Think of it this way. Your argument is that without T-Spins, everyone would just do Tetrises, and that's less interesting. But by the same token, "it's not like [Tetrises] prevent you from playing the other way." Hey, you can still make singles, doubles, and triples. Despite that, everyone goes for Tetrises-- and that's because it's the best way to play. Well guess what, T-Spins are now the best way to play. And by the same reasoning, they do prevent you from playing the other way-- if you want to win.


So if you're still going for Tetrises and sometimes getting T-Spins here and there, I'm sorry, but you suck. You should be going for more T-Spins. That's just the way the game is now. (That was meant to be facetious, so don't feel offended.)

[colour_thief]

the truth


That's the spirit.


http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

[Pineapple]

I voted yes, with the caveat that they are currently way too powerful.

[DIGITAL]

"I agree, it's not like T-Spins prevent you from playing the other way. I find it interesting to have more than one style of playing even if I don't utilize every technique."

But you're wrong. T-Spins do prevent you from playing the other way. There is only one style of playing. Think of it this way. Your argument is that without T-Spins, everyone would just do Tetrises, and that's less interesting. But by the same token, "it's not like [Tetrises] prevent you from playing the other way." Hey, you can still make singles, doubles, and triples. Despite that, everyone goes for Tetrises-- and that's because it's the best way to play. Well guess what, T-Spins are now the best way to play. And by the same reasoning, they do prevent you from playing the other way-- if you want to win.

So if you're still going for Tetrises and sometimes getting T-Spins here and there, I'm sorry, but you suck. You should be going for more T-Spins. That's just the way the game is now. (That was meant to be facetious, so don't feel offended.)


I see what you are saying. Perhaps a separate leaderboard for T-Spins and no T-Spins would solve the problem? As for multiplayer, T-spins should be toned down a bit.

[tetrisdude]

i think they should, it makes the game way more interesting.

[Cubicz]

I'm with Caffeine an CT on this one, and I've made myself pretty clear in block stats a few times. It's inelegant, inconsistent, and takes away from what makes competitive tetris so awesome, which is fast play. For me, they have the same place in tetris as fusion and sticky and crazy gravity, as something different. Good on TTC and Blue Planet (IIRC, dunno who TDS was developed by) for innovating, and lets hope they have the sense to realize their innovation is best remaining a gimmick or option.


Edit:


the truth

That's the spirit.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm


Sirlin would probably be all for t-spins to stay. He would tell caffeine to stop being a scrub. He is pretty much the definition of a scrub in this case, "X feature (t-spins) is overpowered, it should be removed or banned".


I'm still against t-spins btw, but I don't think the theory of playing to win applies in this context.


Edit2: wait I just re-read caffeines post, i mis-interpreted it. caffeine are you saying that tspins are bad, but here to stay, so deal with it? because thats playing to win in a nutshell, so I'm wrong if thats what you meant.

[Kaledean]

I just got Tetris DS and I haven't played since GB Tetris. Sometimes when I play on the DS I notice the T-Spin bonus but I cant replecate it anyone have any pointers?

[jujube]

Kaledean hope this helps

Rosti_LFC's t-spin guide (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=tetris&message.id=29422)

BTW why is this not in the wiki?

oh yeah, Rosti is too lazy to put it there http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

i think in order for a multiplayer tetris game to appeal to players of all levels, there needs to be something more to it than just going for tetrises. in TDS you have sideways and soft drop speeds that are slow, which means anyone who learns to stack without leaving holes will eventually play as fast as the game allows, and will be virtually equal to a large number of people. what then? you would still win most games against slower players, and 50/50 against players that can stack 9 cells wide efficiently, with the winner being the player that gets the I piece when they're stacked exactly 4 rows high and gets more manageable garbage.


the beauty of t-spins IMO is that now you have a higher level of play that you can reach which separates you from the good, average, poor. maybe without t-spins in TDS there would be 20,000 players with a 7000 rating and holic would be at 7200. ugh.


as far as implementing other spins, i wouldn't be against this (having a head start with t-spins http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif ) because it would create an even higher level that one could reach through dedication to learning how to plan ahead and to make the most out of each piece; like taking lemons and making lemonade.


of course i am probably biased because 90% of the tetris i've played in my life has been on a nintendo DS.

[Kaledean]

Thanks, I'm noob to DS tetris I went on wifi and got owned by people with weird characters in their names http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

[PetitPrince]

Going for twists requires an investment in reflexion and time. I think it should be rewarded. But not too much: speed is an essential element of an enjoyable multiplayer game, after all.

There should be a way to quickly attack someone going for complicated twist while he's building is setup.

[Needle]

Sure there's some merits to including T-spins in a game, but the question isn't "Are T-spins good or bad?" but "Should T-Spins be a permanent feature of Tetris?"


Permanent. As in not removable, non-negotiable, every single game, every single variant with wildly different philosophies.

AFAIK even the guidelines doesn't force the inclusion of T-spins in a game. (Henk wasn't aware of its inclusion in TDS, implying the possibility of TDS lacking them; TGMA lacked them completely)

Permanent inclusion sounds like a pretty strong statement to me.

[K]

the truth

That's the spirit.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm


WOW impressive article !!!


hmmm Ultros ?

[colour_thief]

This is excellent. A 50:50 split with 14 votes and lots of great replis on both sides of the debate. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Sirlin would probably be all for t-spins to stay. He would tell caffeine to stop being a scrub. He is pretty much the definition of a scrub in this case, "X feature (t-spins) is overpowered, it should be removed or banned".

I'm still against t-spins btw, but I don't think the theory of playing to win applies in this context.

Edit2: wait I just re-read caffeines post, i mis-interpreted it. caffeine are you saying that tspins are bad, but here to stay, so deal with it? because thats playing to win in a nutshell, so I'm wrong if thats what you meant.


Caffeine and I aren't saying t-spins are cheap or anything like that. When I play TDS I sure as hell go for them: they are the winning strategy. My opinion is that they are an interesting game mechanic, and I enjoy going for them in TDS, but it doesn't really feel like it should be the standard. For the same reason cascades and squares aren't standard. The game is called Tetris not T-Spin, afterall. Right now t-spins give, what, more than double the garbage compared to a tetris (per line cleared)? That's obscene.


Anyways, I too want to stress the "permanent" in the poll question. I use t-spins, as well as other special moves, all the time playing TGM. The game rewards me with survival and I think that is good enough.

[Rosti LFC]

You don't need ONLY t-spins, or loads of them. You just need to be able to see them.


The good Tetris players have the ability to see how to fit the pieces together to clear garbage, or to clear a bit of the stack or fix awkward playing fields. Likewise, on TDS the good players also have the ability to see where to implement t-spins. You don't play for them, the opportunities just crop up, and you seize them.


As for S, Z, J and other twists, I think it mainly lies in the fact that they don't fit in a 3x3 box, leaving the corners clear, like t-pieces do. And anyway, you wouldn't be able to do them unless it was a t-spin triple style setup, and they rarely happen online anyway. Doubles are the only ones that get commonly and effectively used.

[colour_thief]

Doubles are the only ones that get commonly and effectively used.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Singles and "Zeroes" get used also, if for nothing more than to B2B bonus.

[K]

Answered NO :

Some T-Spin reward are interesting but some are poor.

Z, S, T, L & J have the same wall-kick table set rules. Yes for equity balancing reward on Z,S & T (,L & J ?) but NO arbitrary T.

[Rosti LFC]

Doubles are the only ones that get commonly and effectively used.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Singles and "Zeroes" get used also, if for nothing more than to B2B bonus.

Not really effective at blasting the opponent with garbage though, are they?

[tepples]

Kaledean hope this helps
Rosti_LFC's t-spin guide (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=tetris&message.id=29422)
BTW why is this not in the wiki?
oh yeah, Rosti is too lazy to put it there http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif
It is. See Twist reward algorithms (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Twist#Rewards_for_twists).

i think in order for a multiplayer tetris game to appeal to players of all levels, there needs to be something more to it than just going for tetrises. in TDS you have sideways and soft drop speeds that are slow
Then that's the problem. Gimme my 1G DAS and soft drop.

with the winner being the player that gets the I piece when they're stacked exactly 4 rows high and gets more manageable garbage.
Thanks to Random Generator and hold piece, getting the I tetromino at just the right time isn't important. So the major luck element is the garbage more than the randomizer.

of course i am probably biased because 90% of the tetris i've played in my life has been on a nintendo DS.
All Tetris brand games that work on a DS without an emulator and were published outside Japan are exclusively SRS-based. These games (Tetris Worlds and Tetris DS) also have a reward for T-spins and not S- or L-spins that seems hacked in ("3-corner" algorithm). The New Tetris for N64 rewarded all spins ("immobile" algorithm).

As for S, Z, J and other twists, I think it mainly lies in the fact that they don't fit in a 3x3 box, leaving the corners clear, like t-pieces do. And anyway, you wouldn't be able to do them unless it was a t-spin triple style setup

O RLY? Two of the S- and Z-spins (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Twist#Twists_with_S_and_Z) work just fine even on Game Boy and NES rotation systems.


And no, T-spin zero doesn't affect back-to-back state.

[caffeine]

Sirlin would probably be all for t-spins to stay. He would tell caffeine to stop being a scrub. He is pretty much the definition of a scrub in this case, "X feature (t-spins) is overpowered, it should be removed or banned".
[...]
Edit2: wait I just re-read caffeines post, i mis-interpreted it. caffeine are you saying that tspins are bad, but here to stay, so deal with it? because thats playing to win in a nutshell, so I'm wrong if thats what you meant.I didn't think I was saying T-Spins were good or bad at all. I just wanted to clarify that maybe they have a bigger influence on the game than what people are realizing. To continue on this:The good Tetris players have the ability to see how to fit the pieces together to clear garbage, or to clear a bit of the stack or fix awkward playing fields. Likewise, on TDS the good players also have the ability to see where to implement t-spins. You don't play for them, the opportunities just crop up, and you seize them.

Not really effective at blasting the opponent with garbage though, are they?But I think maybe you're wrong. On paper, T-Spins look a hell of a lot better than Tetrises, and I don't think anyone yet has the right to say "well, the games been played long enough to say that the best way to go is to _blank_." The way it looks on paper, however, players should be going for TSS/D/T all the way (they're all worth the same in VS TDS), and then Tetrises only when necessary (say those frequent long garbage openings in TDS). In my experience, Tetrises are only really more favorable when clearing garbage in that specific circumstance of having a 3+ verticle hole.


So let's take a break and think about this for a second. Tetris has been out for over twenty years. The goal has always been to build up tall and put the long one down the hole. That's pretty easy for a beginner to grasp and then naturally build skill upon that. So wait, now that player can still do that, but this isn't the best way to play. The best way to play is something completely different. At some point if that beginner wants to improve, he will need to completely undue mostly everything he's learned and revamp his stacking method-- likely to something conventionalized and dry (ST stacking for example). If you ask me, making T-Spins more powerful than Tetrises results in two major things: 1. broken learning curve, hugely seperating the elite from the rest; and 2. conventionalized and inorganic optimal stacking method.


edit: To respond to, "Sirlin would probably be all for t-spins to stay," let me just say that Sirlin also said that for a developer to make a hugely successful multiplayer game, that developer must know how the game operates at it's highest level of play.

[Rosti LFC]

But the ST stack isn't versatile. You get a bad run of pieces, or make a misdrop, and you can be thoroughly screwed over.

Going for Tetrises is always the safest option. Yes, going only for t-spins would be more beneficial, but who does? I only know of one player who uses t-spins more than Tetrises. Tetrises are easier, and also allow for garbage to be cleared. To clear garbage with t-spin setups other than a double, you need to abandon the setup.

[mat]

no.

[jujube]

Kaledean hope this helps
Rosti_LFC's t-spin guide (http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=tetris&message.id=29422)
BTW why is this not in the wiki?
oh yeah, Rosti is too lazy to put it there http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif
It is. See Twist reward algorithms (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/Twist#Rewards_for_twists).

yes but rosti's guide goes more in depth with t-spin doubles.

i think in order for a multiplayer tetris game to appeal to players of all levels, there needs to be something more to it than just going for tetrises. in TDS you have sideways and soft drop speeds that are slow
Then that's the problem. Gimme my 1G DAS and soft drop.

right on tepples! if cultris didn't have wackily colored pieces maybe i would play that.

with the winner being the player that gets the I piece when they're stacked exactly 4 rows high and gets more manageable garbage.
Thanks to Random Generator and hold piece, getting the I tetromino at just the right time isn't important. So the major luck element is the garbage more than the randomizer.


yes tepples i agree that there is more luck with garbage than the randomizer, but of course it is always nice to build for efficient tetrises, and in doing so you may need an I piece to set it up, as well as storing other pieces in the hold box for later use. i've seen players that keep an I piece in the hold box and they're lucky if they get the right pieces in the right order to stack the way that the garbage underneath calls for.

[DIGITAL]

If you ask me, making T-Spins more powerful than Tetrises results in two major things: 1. broken learning curve, hugely seperating the elite from the rest; and 2. conventionalized and inorganic optimal stacking method.


I agree somewhat with your first point. Yes, T-Spins are too powerful in their current state and should be toned down. However, why should the gap separating an elite and a novice decrease? If anything, it should increase in my opinion.


On your second point, how is it conventionalized and inorganic? I can say the same thing for tetrises once someone comes up with the best way to stack with nine cells. T-Spins can also be morphed and built without setups. They are just way harder to visualize but the possibility is always there.

[tepples]

T-spins are almost better for clearing messy garbage than tetrises. If you have 1 row of garbage against the wall, do a TSS. If you have garbage in the middle, then drop an S or Z and do a well-known twist. And you can practice this at your own pace: Try starting LJ, playing gimmick H.R. Derby, making a whole bunch of singles to get garbage, and then clearing the garbage that way.

[caffeine]

I agree somewhat with your first point. Yes, T-Spins are too powerful in their current state and should be toned down. However, why should the gap separating an elite and a novice decrease? If anything, it should increase in my opinion.

On your second point, how is it conventionalized and inorganic? I can say the same thing for tetrises once someone comes up with the best way to stack with nine cells. T-Spins can also be morphed and built without setups. They are just way harder to visualize but the possibility is always there.No, the gap should follow the normal distribution bell curve. What I'm saying is that because the skill set forks, many players will never go anywhere near expert levels since expertly skilled players will play an entirely different type of Tetris than them. The reason I like Tetris so much is because theortically anyone can, by themselves, hone their skills and become an expert through logic and practice-- fine tuning things little things like overcoming difficult land situations (and garbage), and ultimately speed. Normally a decent player might follow this type of course, but that will only hurt him in the long run if you throw T-Spins into the equation. What it comes down to is that certain people will learn to exploit T-Spins and will thereafter rape all the other players who _go for Tetrises and make T-Spins when possible_. It doesn't matter what the majority of good players are comfortable with now-- I'm telling you, sooner or later all you will see is T-Spins and very little Tetrises from the elite players.


This is my own opinion, so I admit you do have a good argument, but I consider Tetrises more pure and organic than T-Spins because A) Tetrises are the most simultanous line clears you can make at one time. That is why they are significant. That is why we go for them. They are special because they are very clearly big and important line clears. Anyone can tell you that. And don't forget they're risky, too. That's why the game's fun. We have to stack higher than any other method in order to go for a Tetris-- nearing us closer to the top.


So why are T-Spin's so special? We've been doing them since version one. Okay, they were kind of cool, but eventually they're just another trick in your arsenal of many tricks. There exist way more helpful tricks, but we'll humor them. Then when you see a noob do it, and he's like "did you see that? cool huh?", you kind of just smile, nod, and think "how cute." T wall kicks work the same as all non O/I tetrominoes. I really don't see what's so significant about them.


Oh yeah, and the other reason to that was B) the name of the fucking game is Tetris.

[DIGITAL]

No, the gap should follow the normal distribution bell curve. What I'm saying is that because the skill set forks, many players will never go anywhere near expert levels since expertly skilled players will play an entirely different type of Tetris than them. The reason I like Tetris so much is because theortically anyone can, by themselves, hone their skills and become an expert through logic and practice-- fine tuning things little things like overcoming difficult land situations (and garbage), and ultimately speed. Normally a decent player might follow this type of course, but that will only hurt him in the long run if you throw T-Spins into the equation. What it comes down to is that certain people will learn to exploit T-Spins and will thereafter rape all the other players who _go for Tetrises and make T-Spins when possible_. It doesn't matter what the majority of good players are comfortable with now-- I'm telling you, sooner or later all you will see is T-Spins and very little Tetrises from the elite players.
Ah, I understand what you are saying now. If the root of the problem is that T-Spins reward more than tetrises, then wouldn't a mild nerf fix the problem? If we make T-spins supplemental to tetrises, would it not become an added skill like all the other little things (rotation mastery, speed, etc.)?
This is my own opinion, so I admit you do have a good argument, but I consider Tetrises more pure and organic than T-Spins because A) Tetrises are the most simultanous line clears you can make at one time. That is why they are significant. That is why we go for them. They are special because they are very clearly big and important line clears. Anyone can tell you that. And don't forget they're risky, too. That's why the game's fun. We have to stack higher than any other method in order to go for a Tetris-- nearing us closer to the top.
We all have opinions I guess. I consider T-Spins (and any other twist) more risky.
Oh yeah, and the other reason to that was B) the name of the fucking game is Tetris.

I can't argue with that! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[tepples]

T wall kicks work the same as all non O/I tetrominoes. I really don't see what's so significant about them.

J, L, S, T, and Z wall kicks all have the same problem: there is one choice where the end state does not overlap any blocks of the start state, so where is the axis?


"The name of the game is Tetris"? This means that all the clones can satisfy both trademark law and truth-in-advertising law by calling themselves "T-spin", right?

[caffeine]

You tell me. Should someone make a game Tetris game called T-Spin to find out? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[Pineapple]

J, L, S, T, and Z wall kicks all have the same problem: there is one choice where the end state does not overlap any blocks of the start state, so where is the axis?
I assume that you're only refering to SRS with that statement. It seems to me that the biggest problem with SRS is caused by the following entry in the wallkick table: "5: Position one right and two down"

"The name of the game is Tetris"? This means that all the clones can satisfy both trademark law and truth-in-advertising law by calling themselves "T-spin", right?
You tell me. Should someone make a game Tetris game called T-Spin to find out? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

Are you sure it's a good idea suggesting that to him? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Ezzelin]

I voted "No". T-Spins are the primary reason I do no play Tetris DS multiplayer: I know that if ever would want to become competitive in multiplayer, I would need to learn T-Spin strategy, which I have no interest in. Not because it's cheap, but like others have said, because it's arbitrary, random, and inelegant. I don't believe in the word cheap, honestly, and agree with most of Sirlin's article. If I wanted to become good at Tetris DS, then I'd play the game the way it is. But that brings me back to why I don't play. I find the game uninteresting, compared to TGM or pretty much any other Tetris game.


Now T-Spins as a concept are fine. I see nothing wrong with counting them, showing a special graphic when they are achieved, etc. But I don't think they should be anything more than an extra, as something neat you did. I don't think they should have any obligatory bearing on game play. They just aren't as interesting as classic Tetris gameplay to me.


Others have made the case that they are good because they expand the gap between the good players and the bad, or that they create a high-level game. Having a high-level game is not a bad thing. Suggesting that Tetris needs T-Spins in order to have one or to have a higher one is ridiculous, though. Tetris already had one of the highest high-level games before the concept of rewarding T-Spins came around. Just look at any high-level TGM video for proof of this. Clearly there can be separation and a high-level game without rewarding T-Spins.


As far as high-level play specifically for multiplayer going forward, I believe the way to differentiate players should not be with twisting ability, but with high-speed play ability. I've been playing Heboris multiplayer when I play multiplayer lately, and it allows either side to select speeds arbitrarily. I'd like to see high-level players try multiplayer at Death mode speeds! That would certainly be interesting, high-level, and would still be Tetris as is always has been. I don't think everyone would be on an equal playing field at that point. As Sirlin's article says: "The point is that if a game becomes “no fun” at high levels of play, then it’s the game’s fault, not the player’s. ... For games that truly aren’t good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play." I couldn't agree more.

[DIGITAL]

Others have made the case that they are good because they expand the gap between the good players and the bad, or that they create a high-level game. Having a high-level game is not a bad thing. Suggesting that Tetris needs T-Spins in order to have one or to have a higher one is ridiculous, though. Tetris already had one of the highest high-level games before the concept of rewarding T-Spins came around. Just look at any high-level TGM video for proof of this. Clearly there can be separation and a high-level game without rewarding T-Spins.

As far as high-level play specifically for multiplayer going forward, I believe the way to differentiate players should not be with twisting ability, but with high-speed play ability. I've been playing Heboris multiplayer when I play multiplayer lately, and it allows either side to select speeds arbitrarily. I'd like to see high-level players try multiplayer at Death mode speeds! That would certainly be interesting, high-level, and would still be Tetris as is always has been. I don't think everyone would be on an equal playing field at that point. As Sirlin's article says: "The point is that if a game becomes “no fun” at high levels of play, then it’s the game’s fault, not the player’s. ... For games that truly aren’t good at a high level, the only winning move is not to play." I couldn't agree more.


Of course T-spins aren't necessary to have high level gameplay. Then again, many other things aren't necessary to have high level gameplay. Speed alone isn't a necessity to have high level gameplay. Heck, even tetrises aren't necessary for high level gameplay. T-Spins add another dimension to the game just like any other aspect. The number of dimensions determine the limit of high level gameplay. Why can't we just nerf the power of T-spins rather than taking them out completely? Rather than taking away dimensions, shouldn't we add more?


It all comes down to opinion of what ideal tetris is all about. I just think that changes could be added to the formula without drastically changing it that's all.

[Rosti LFC]

I played a friend game with NOAH and a few other 2ch players. They're well ahead of anything I've ever seen with t-spins. Some of the setups were just mental. It looked like they'd misdropped badly, or had messed up, but no. Some clever manoeuvring later and I was up to my neck in garbage.

The way NOAH lays down t-spins is incredible.

Still I was winning a decent proportion of games, so they can't be too powerful.

[colour_thief]

Still I was winning a decent proportion of games, so they can't be too powerful.


I'd wager they were playing slower to accomodate the t-spins, and in time will become fast enough to slaughter those who play differently.

[colour_thief]

In TDS, an EZ TSS on 20 is worth 4000. A regular old TSS on 20 is worth 16000 (more than a TSD /lines).

As far as I can tell, TDS follows this scoring scheme (http://zone.tetris.com/page/manual), save for the combo bits.

X T     XT
XTTT => XTT
X XX    XTXX


There's EZ T-Spin Single and EZ T-Spin (Zero).



Was it common knowledge that these t-spins were rewarded differently?

That significantly ups the inelegance factor, in my opinion...

And doesn't the game not distinguish between them properly?

It'll just say "T-Spin" regardless of the type.

[Rosti LFC]

Triple Lei, you legend.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=U2rmBp4DokE



That is now my bible for t-spins. It includes the ones that NOAH and the other people I played were doing. Especially the second one (Super T-Spin Double - 0:36) and it's variation later on (TKI Signature - 4:00). The one at 3:18 is also very cool.


I'd never seen those before that video other than the friend game this week. Maybe I'm just behind the times.

[DIGITAL]

Triple Lei, you legend.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U2rmBp4DokE


That is now my bible for t-spins. It includes the ones that NOAH and the other people I played were doing. Especially the second one (Super T-Spin Double - 0:36) and it's variation later on (TKI Signature - 4:00). The one at 3:18 is also very cool.

I'd never seen those before that video other than the friend game this week. Maybe I'm just behind the times.


http://www.tetrisconcept.com/wiki/index ... in_methods (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/index.php/T-spin_methods)

[cyberguile]

I haven't been playing tetris for long time, so I nearly understand nothing about everything that has been said here http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif but I thought I could share my newbish point of view:

When I first played tds and tgm around six months ago, my tetris skills were those from the original game boy version and thus, I hated the T (don't ask me why, it was just like that).

Each time I got one, I was just thinking "shit, what the hell am I going to do with this shitty tetromino ?"

After watching a couple of videos to understand the "special moves" that were added to the good old gb tetris, I realised each time I was saying (to myself http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif ): "WTF !", the guy on da video did something unbelievable for me with T. So I started to try and do those things myself until today: my favourite tetromino is T http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif I really love all the shit you can do with it !

As said before, it helps cleaning the garbage in the middle of the screen very quickly, makes you feel like "hey, you're playing nicely" sometimes and most important part: makes your friend think "WTF !" when they play with you on TDS http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

[Rosti LFC]

I always loved the T. You need a seriously screwed up field to not be able to place it.

The square piece however...

[colour_thief]

I always loved the T. You need a seriously screwed up field to not be able to place it.
The square piece however...


I love the O. It's so straightforward. You never rotate it, regardless of the rotation system. It's never the cause of any serious holes either.

[DIGITAL]

I always loved the T. You need a seriously screwed up field to not be able to place it.
The square piece however...

I love the O. It's so straightforward. You never rotate it, regardless of the rotation system. It's never the cause of any serious holes either.


I agree. The O is great hehe. They fit very well if you remember to build evenly.

[Cubicz]

I always loved the T. You need a seriously screwed up field to not be able to place it.
The square piece however...

I love the O. It's so straightforward. You never rotate it, regardless of the rotation system. It's never the cause of any serious holes either.

I agree. The O is great hehe. They fit very well if you remember to build evenly.


O causes me a lot of trouble, because i stack badly. but l and j are my least favourite because i invariably place then on their end, which often leaves a tower 3 blocks high, which can only be fixed with I. Except when LJO happens, that is sweet.

[tepples]

I always loved the T. You need a seriously screwed up field to not be able to place it.
The square piece however...

I love the O. It's so straightforward. You never rotate it, regardless of the rotation system.

Some clones, especially web-based (JS/Java/Flash) ones, use a rotation system where O rotates around one of its corner pieces:

  ...... ...... ...... ...... ......
  ..OO.. ...OO. ...... ...... ..OO..
  ..OO.. ...OO. ...OO. ..OO.. ..OO..
  ...... ...... ...OO. ..OO.. ......


Even some BPS-developed games, such as Bombliss (Tetris Blast in US) and The Next Tetris, allow O to contain multiple colors:
  ...... ...... ...... ...... ......
  ..OX.. ..OO.. ..OO.. ..XO.. ..OX..
  ..OO.. ..OX.. ..XO.. ..OO.. ..OO..
  ...... ...... ...... ...... ......

[jujube]

O causes me a lot of trouble, because i stack badly. but l and j are my least favourite because i invariably place then on their end, which often leaves a tower 3 blocks high, which can only be fixed with I. Except when LJO happens, that is sweet.

LJO happens a lot with a 7 piece bag. probably more than you realize. if you can take those pieces out of the bag, stick them out of the way where they don't interfere, you have S and Z for setting up T spins and the I for tetrises. this is a bit idealistic, but my point is LJO happens when your first piece is J, your second piece is O and your seventh piece is L. it's a very good way to stack i think.

[Pineapple]

One thing that I want to add:


After watching the Triple Lei vs jujube vid, it made me realise something. the current mode of thought by the people who are in charge of desiging these official games believe that the great power of the T-spin is offset by the fact that you need to soft drop to do it. It's also probably the one reason why we'll never see a non-locking hard drop in an official game.


My thoughts? Yes, the fact that you have to slow down to do it does make it harder. But it's still worth the risk, with the current T-spin rewards...

[GFish]

Yep, i voted for t-spins. "With great power comes great responsibility."

[Zaphod77]

I'm of the opinion that "the game's name is tetris" (chuckle).

I have a few possible ideas.

1) Only award line bonuses for t-spins if they are used to clear garbage lines. This way you can't set them up so easily.

or maybe

2) go back to "immobile", reward all twists, and reduce the reward. Spin triple three, spin double 2, spin single 1, and ONLY TRIPLES continue back to back.

[massi4h]

Me being the TDS T-spin whore that I am, love T-spins.

I can't get enough of my beloved setups. I mean Tetris is fun, but I always thought all the special things you could do with the T's was amazing. I can seriously play at least twice as good using just T-spins and only tetrises with garbage than the other way around if I am going at full speed. And when you get higher up, you barely have any soft-dropping to do, which makes TSTs a life saver.

If you watch Triple Lei's video vs. snark you see snark has heaps of good setups involving tetrises after t-spins, as you can do the t-spins higher up and then tetris straight after with hard dropping rather than doing a longer soft drop.


They were purposely put in TDS and that makes the game that sort of style.

I wouldn't wanna get rid of them, especially ones that don't even need to kick, but I have no problem with either nerfing them or simply removing the bonus in the future, so they can just be like the old days (I'm talking about GB Tetris cause that's as far back as I go). So that's a yes from me.

[Blink]

a few months ago i would have voted no, now that i've learned how to do them, i vote yes. lol

[Udy]

Woah, what a tight vote!
I'm clicked yes, I like working them into my game as it varies things up a bit. I played 16 odd years without them and now I'm playing games with them I've rediscovered my love of the game. Plus it makes me look fancy in front of my (very few by now) friends http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[caffeine]

I still hate hate hate them.

[jujube]

I still hate hate hate them.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1471418773 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8945614971471418773)

ok, ok, that was over 2 years ago, and more of a demonstration than an expression of fondness http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

but at the same time, how many people said they found the forum after watching that video? you have to get the name out somehow.

[caffeine]

Tetris doesn't need flashy gimmicks. It's the top mobile game and makes bajillions of dollars, and most people still don't know what the hell a T-Spin is. What Tetris does need is solid and competitive gameplay.

[hova]

Tetris doesn't need flashy gimmicks. It's the top mobile game and makes bajillions of dollars, and most people still don't know what the hell a T-Spin is. What Tetris does need is solid and competitive gameplay.
that's why i voted for "No". Tetris is all about clearing four lines of blocks at the same time. it has always been this way and should be this way.

[m:)]

it's called tetris!!

i'm in the process of learning them for the first time because I have to.

t-spins are ok but should be weaker then a tetris.

[Kasumi]

Wow. It was dead even before I voted.

Anyway, I voted no, mainly because I don't see why T-Spins are rewarded and not any other kind of spin. There are some much cooler ways to manipulate the kicks. Though I do like combos for competitive Tetris. But that's another story.

[DIGITAL]

Anyway, I voted no, mainly because I don't see why T-Spins are rewarded and not any other kind of spin. There are some much cooler ways to manipulate the kicks. Though I do like combos for competitive Tetris. But that's another story.
Here's my weird little explanation for that. Take it with a grain of salt.

L/J/S/Z - Not rewarded because they are not entirely unique
O - Can't rotate http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif
I - It can already tetris.
T - The only unique one that can rotate but doesn't already have a function...

Why not just reward all of them? Because then, you'd have a freakishly massive amount of weapons of destruction at your disposal. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[jujube]

i can agree with points from both sides here. if twists with all pieces were rewarded, especially with a 7-piece bag randomizer, it would open up the door for so many possible attacking setups that the game would become a pure attacking game. if you didn't know all the twists, or didn't study openings and quick midgame setups, then you would just lose every game.

but...i do like combos, and in a combo, every piece becomes a powerful attacking piece, and you don't even have to slow down by soft dropping as you would with a twist.

the difference is that setting up a long combo is usually a big commitment which involves either stacking high or allowing garbage to push you up near the top of the well. if you could start a game with an 8-row high setup which led to 4 twists and sent 20 rows of garbage, it would clearly be less risky, take less pieces (less planning), and do more damage per time.

if all twists were rewarded but the reward was nerfed, the level of the reward would determine whether or not a twisting strategy would be viable. i'm not sure the existence of more twist rewards would add a dynamic to the game. while sending 1 extra line of garbage per twist might not be enough, sending 2 extra lines might be too much.

[PikaTheXIII]

they are powerful lol they can rape!! D:

[herc]

It's just so arbitrary. Why not reward other line clears like S and Z triples?
Better still: reward every twist clear.

How about this idea: Garbage is 0/1/2/4 for normal clears, and 1/2/3 for twist clears. Twists are detected using the "immobile" algorithm.

nice idea! i like the idea of scoring twists a bit higher, because it feels so good if you magically filled a hole using a spin.

@lardarse: what is the "immobile algorithm" ?

[DIGITAL]

nice idea! i like the idea of scoring twists a bit higher, because it feels so good if you magically filled a hole using a spin.

@lardarse: what is the "immobile algorithm" ?

Lockjaw has a scoring system implemented on this basis. The immobile algorithm sounds just like what it suggests. The piece has to be immobile (unable to be moved or rotated) after being rotated into some gap.

[Kitaru]

Actually, I think the definition of immobile is just that a piece would collide if shifted one unit left, right, or up. Many spins wouldn't work anymore if you had a clause in there that said it wasn't allowed to rotate either.

[DIGITAL]

Yeah, that would make sense now that I think about it.

[tepples]

Kitaru described "immobile" correctly. It was my best guess at how The New Tetris for N64 determines whether a move was a "spin move", as of 2000 when I was developing Carbon Engine for freepuzzlearena, and I still haven't found any counterexamples.

[lgb]

Give T-spins a minor point increase over their counterpart "normal-line-clears" and keep it that way. Say you got 500/1000/2000/5000 or such for line clears; using a T-spin to clear those lines would give you maybe... a 500 point increase for each line, which would lead to 1000/1500/2500/5500.

In my opinion, that's what it should have been to begin with.