Fastest Player?

[colour_thief]

Recently a new record was set in TGM3's Shirase Mode: lvl 1300 @ 4:41.


This is fast!

VERY FAST!!!

How fast you say?


Well, there's no video... This was done in arcades. But I can figure out the approximate speed.


1300 levels. Each piece is worth 1.4 levels, 1 for the piece, and more for the line it might help make. A line is 10 blocks, and a piece is 4, so 4/10 = 0.4 and 1+0.4 = 1.4.


Also, Shirase has "garbage" rise from the bottom. This will contribute to lines and therefore levels. Assuming maximal efficiency of 9 blocks per rising, each rise will give 0.9 levels. Watching the current videos, players received 16 and 17 rises over the course of a complete Shirase round. I'll be conservative and assume there were 20 rises somehow.


1300-(20*0.9) = 1282 levels to be accounted for by pieces alone.

1282/1.4 = 916 pieces received by the player.

4:41 = 281 seconds.

916/281 = 3.26


So...

3.26 Pieces Per Second !!!
196 Pieces a Minute !!!!!!


Keep in mind this is a conservative estimate. The player definitely played faster than this. Also, the second half of Shirase is faster than the first half. He was probably moving closer to 230 pieces a minute towards the end!


TGM3 or TDS, it makes no difference... The greatest obstacle to a fast time will always be the human mind.

[caffeine]

awesome. he's a pro in my book.

[K]

simply : maybe we could simply call him "GrandMaster" ...

[caffeine]

"grandmaster"... eh, gay? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

[colour_thief]

that, was unnecessarily low brow...

[caffeine]

http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif sorry, but "grandmaster" reminds me of the title they put on those really old chess guys. it's just, eh-- kind of cheesy?

[colour_thief]

cheesy's ok, it's just "gay" is an insult typically used by 5 year olds... and not exactly politically correct


'sup gay tetris players

[K]

???

[caffeine]

speaking of-- i know a gay tetris player. he's really good. he'd go about 160tpm at times. it's not exactly politically incorrect. i'd make gay jokes all the time around him-- gay people have a sense of humor, too.

[Needle]

Well ct/Jago, however insanely fast he might've been, he's STILL "just" an S13 grade player according to the game itself... Nobody even knows what it takes to get GM in TGM3 yet, let alone attain one http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[Amnesia]

I think it's a joke..A tool assisted video...Thre is no proof it's real..

[colour_thief]

Amnesia is a tool assisted poster. We have no proof.



Seriously dude, they're real and you're going to have to come to terms with this sooner or later. If you went to Japan and saw a good player in an arcade, you would see for yourself how silly it is to call them cheaters. If you'd ever go to [secret place], which you haven't even though we gave you explicit instructions like 5 times, we could prove you wrong.

[Amnesia]

To make an assisted video is such an easy thing!!

there is 3 month I sent a photo of T.A. DEATH finished in 5min12 in Gm to jagorochi and he believed it!


We are enough good to see the difference between a true and a false video!

Ok..I think a human can do it..But it's too much this time..I need to go in Japan (I think in the 4 next years) in order to see it!

[caffeine]

how do you tool assist a game you can only play through the arcade board? there's no way to predict what will happen in the game.

[colour_thief]

Yes, I am good enough to see that it is not a fake video. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

And jago didn't believe that picture... He simply didn't care...

[tepples]

how do you tool assist a game you can only play through the arcade board? there's no way to predict what will happen in the game.

Unless the game seeds its random number generator off a hash of the SRAM or off a real-time clock, you can count vblanks. Or you can use expansion hardware to pause the CPU clock and freeze and thaw states. Or you can use a version of MAME released before Arika cease-and-desisted the developers.

[caffeine]

um well then there ya go... http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif

/stupid tepples always with his crazy-asperger's-knowledge-of-everything-making-me-look-bad stuff.

[cyberguile]

Hey amnesia, stop thinking about fakes lol

Many people in japan who play on the arcade just don't have any video game systems at home (for instance, the best street fighter alpha 3 and capcom vs snk 2 world player, Bas, plays only on the arcade and sometimes goes to a friend's house to train a little bit his combos)

You just can't cheat when you play on the arcade.


Most people, by seeing this:

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid= ... dodonpachi (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=2551008826107497600&q=dodonpachi)

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3yVpPJvss

will say "fake" or "geek".

It's because they just don't know (as you) what arcade is in japan.

I can tell you, those two vids are just nothing compared to what I've seen in japan. The most incredible thing I saw was a guy who played 4 hours non-stop (when you finish the game with one coin, you don't get "game over" in most japanese arcades center) on dodonpachi daioujouh (yeah the vid up there with the ridiculous final boss) and stood up in the middle of the game when his girlfriend arrived http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

People in japan have two possibilities after work: go out and have fun or go home and be bored in their 10 square meters appartment.

Some go to the restaurants with other employees from their society, some go to have a drink, others to the cinema, others to the love hotel er, hum hum, and some others go to the arcade.

What is the arcade in japan ?

Well, beside the small arcades, you got the buildings like the sega centers, taito centers etc etc etc.

5 stairs, hundreds and hundreds of games. You must see this by your own eyes ! The 5 minutes your ears will need to accomodate to the insanely loudy noise of all the systems. The 20 minutes you will need to find a game you wan't to play (there's so many of them). That's just insane.

And in this big arcade, you've got some people who stay there from the ending of their working day until they go home to sleep. 6 days a week. 48 weeks a year.

Generally, they play only a specific sort of game (well, everybody prefers one sort of game) and more important, they PAY to play.

Even if it doesn't sound important, it actually is.

When your money is going down, you play WELL more concentrated and safely and thus, you progress much more faster. Moreover, if you loose, you might have to stand up and leave the game to the guy waiting behind you. And maybe need to wait half an hour to replay.


I personnally haven't been to hardcore tetris player's arcade (I assume they exist, as exists some for virtua fighter, others for shmups, other for guylty gear and so on), but for what I've seen, I can tell you those tetris vids aren't fakes.

Imagine loans of people playing 2 hours every day for the last six years (10 000 GM on tgm1 ? and only a couple of them can reach S13 ? What's so surprising about this ?)

I would even say that a japanese game isn't able to make a fake video.

Fake videos to show your skills is issued from the occidental culture. I don't think it's a concept japanese people can even understand.

When there is a trick in the video, (I've seen a LOT of videos with tricks), it's just written at the ending of the video !

[tepples]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid= ... dodonpachi (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=2551008826107497600&q=dodonpachi)

How can an average player stay alove for more than ten seconds in this sort of game? Or is it a hobby only for the filthy rich, where you can survive for 30 seconds on one credit after having played the game 30 times? Is everybody in Japan filthy rich or something?

[Ken_P]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3yVpPJvss
will say "fake" or "geek".


Actually, what I said (or thought) is: why not just actually play the piano? Most of those pieces (and I recognized all of them) aren't even that difficult, probably much less so than the game version, and much more worthwhile. I guess I'm not hardcore enough. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[cyberguile]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3yVpPJvss
will say "fake" or "geek".

Actually, what I said (or thought) is: why not just actually play the piano? Most of those pieces (and I recognized all of them) aren't even that difficult, probably much less so than the game version, and much more worthwhile. I guess I'm not hardcore enough. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif


Maybe coz you need space to have a piano lol

[cyberguile]

How can an average player stay alove for more than ten seconds in this sort of game? Or is it a hobby only for the filthy rich, where you can survive for 30 seconds on one credit after having played the game 30 times? Is everybody in Japan filthy rich or something?


Well, salary in japan are high and most youngsters live with their parents so all the cash can go in video games.

When you've been playing only shoot em ups for 10 years, you don't loose easily when you try a knew one http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif and at 50 yens a credit, it's not so expensive when you can virtually spend 200k yens a month lol

[colour_thief]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid= ... dodonpachi (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=2551008826107497600&q=dodonpachi)
How can an average player stay alove for more than ten seconds in this sort of game? Or is it a hobby only for the filthy rich, where you can survive for 30 seconds on one credit after having played the game 30 times? Is everybody in Japan filthy rich or something?


There are a few things happening on a mechanical level that makes this possible:


Collision is not pixel perfect. The player ship typically has a very small vulnerable area (usually called a "hitbox") that is much smaller than the graphic. It's not uncommon for a ship to have 1 single vulnerable pixel! Furthermore, bullets also have a hitbox smaller than the graphic, though typically not quite so drastic.


This makes the game feel more intense like you're always on the edge of death. More than that, though, it helps you see things in your peripheral vision. In the end, though the video looks insane, it's not as insane as it appears.


And I'm not saying the shmup equivalent of "OMG the pieces don't stick when they hit the botton I could do that"... I still have huge respect for the players. It just looks more impossible than it really is when you don't know the conventions of the genre.

[PetitPrince]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV3yVpPJvss
will say "fake" or "geek".

Actually, what I said (or thought) is: why not just actually play the piano? Most of those pieces (and I recognized all of them) aren't even that difficult, probably much less so than the game version, and much more worthwhile. I guess I'm not hardcore enough. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

Benami's (Konami's rythm game branch) games and real instrument are different. In <insert your favorite rythm game here>, you press a button when an indicator reaches a line, whereas you read a score and interpret them with real instruments. So, a good player may have the right dexterity to play a real instrument (I'm thinking about Guitar Hero (http://www.popgadget.net/images/guitar-hero.jpg) and Drummania (http://www.zax.com.au/images/konami/drumv2cab.gif)), but they lack the "read the score" part of mind.

[tepples]

What is a Beatmania/PnM note chart if not a partial score? Play Keyboard Mania and tell me with a straight face that you're not reading a score of sorts.

[Lardarse]

You can actually get music making programs that will display the music a bit like that, except it will display it moving sideways...

[lee n]

Most people, by seeing this:
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid= ... dodonpachi (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=2551008826107497600&q=dodonpachi)
How can an average player stay alove for more than ten seconds in this sort of game? Or is it a hobby only for the filthy rich, where you can survive for 30 seconds on one credit after having played the game 30 times? Is everybody in Japan filthy rich or something?

There are a few things happening on a mechanical level that makes this possible:

Collision is not pixel perfect. The player ship typically has a very small vulnerable area (usually called a "hitbox") that is much smaller than the graphic. It's not uncommon for a ship to have 1 single vulnerable pixel! Furthermore, bullets also have a hitbox smaller than the graphic, though typically not quite so drastic.

This makes the game feel more intense like you're always on the edge of death. More than that, though, it helps you see things in your peripheral vision. In the end, though the video looks insane, it's not as insane as it appears.

And I'm not saying the shmup equivalent of "OMG the pieces don't stick when they hit the botton I could do that"... I still have huge respect for the players. It just looks more impossible than it really is when you don't know the conventions of the genre.


Also there are freeware programs out there where you can practise avoiding famous bullet patterns.. like BulletGBA (http://gba.pqrs.org/bulletgba/default.htm)

[cyberguile]

What is a Beatmania/PnM note chart if not a partial score? Play Keyboard Mania and tell me with a straight face that you're not reading a score of sorts.


Sure, but playing music is not only transcripting notes but, most important part, transcripting feelings. Which is a lot different.

You got two guys playing the same sheet, perfectly, with no mistakes.

But listening to one will be astonishingly boring while listening to the other will hypnotise you.

If both of them played the same sheet perfectly on a music game, there would be no difference http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[Amnesia]

Fake videos to show your skills is issued from the occidental culture. I don't think it's a concept japanese people can even understand.


Do you know Morimoto?

He is Japan and he is the first and the best "tool assisted time attacker" of the world..

Since my last post about fake I've thought about this and it's right :

They have tgm2 since 2000 and us since 2005..

But I believe in this super player only at 97%..I want to see with my eyes..

It's so easy to make a TAS with all support..

[colour_thief]

There has been a TAS of TAP released widely. It's not very interesting to watch, but compared to the real videos it doesn't play very human-like at all. Death 999 in 4:32. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

[lee n]

There has been a TAS of TAP released widely. It's not very interesting to watch, but compared to the real videos it doesn't play very human-like at all. Death 999 in 4:32. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

Frankly.. I don't find tool assisted replays interesting to watch at all, it's like filming yourself walking around a running track and then speed up the movie and say you did it faster than anyone in the world.


There's no real skill involved, just patience.

[caffeine]

"it's like filming yourself walking around a running track and then speed up the movie and say you did it faster than anyone in the world. " this is a bad analogy because tool assisted speed runs don't edit video in anyway-- anything done in a TAS can really be done in the game.


to me, a speed run is to a play as a TAS is to a movie. like play actors, movie actors are talented, but in a different way. i think TASs can be really interesting to watch in that they bring out a lot of glitches and to-the-frame details a live player can't detect. i watch a speed run the way i would an olympic event and a TAS the way i would a movie. they're both entertaining.


btw, that tap TAS isn't much of a TAS if you ask me. looked like it was just done in slow-mo. i bet t.a. death could go sub-four minutes if done correctly.

[cyberguile]

Of course I know morimoto, and I also know biskwit on whose site morimoto first put his vids.

Here is what you can read on the home page:

"These are movies of classic console games being played extraordinarily, using an emulator as a tool to overcome human limitations such as skill and reflex."

As I said, when they use tricks, they tell it (the fact is that morimoto's first vids of super mario bros and megaman spread really fastly on the web without refering to the site where they were from and many people thought it was just a guy playing on his nes)

[Amnesia]

My favorite is megaman 2 in 28min..After viewed it, I practiced hardly (I thought it was real) and I can make 37min on the nes..

[cdsboy]

I think slowing down the videos to record is just plain lame. Why show the world what you can do when the game is dumbed down. I think that only people with something great to show whould post their videos.

[cyberguile]

I think slowing down the videos to record is just plain lame. Why show the world what you can do when the game is dumbed down. I think that only people with something great to show whould post their videos.


Well the superplay recorded with emulator tricks mainly shows things hard as hell when not impossible to do on a normal system(for instance, there is a zelda 3 video where the guy walks through the walls using a programmation bug: if you press left AND right together, link does this. impossible on a super nes)

[tepples]

Impossible on Super NES? Hardly. If you wire the appropriate pin of a Power Pad (NES dance mat) to the Super NES's controller input, you can press Left+Right.

[lee n]

"it's like filming yourself walking around a running track and then speed up the movie and say you did it faster than anyone in the world. " this is a bad analogy because tool assisted speed runs don't edit video in anyway-- anything done in a TAS can really be done in the game.


Not really, they're slowing down the gameplay and then play it at normal speed when they're done recording.


Walking is slowed down running (you can even try to look like you're running if you want to) and then play the video at "normal speed".


Ok, the analogy is not great.. but the point remains.

[cyberguile]

Impossible on Super NES? Hardly. If you wire the appropriate pin of a Power Pad (NES dance mat) to the Super NES's controller input, you can press Left+Right.


Yeah, and finish the game in three minutes with an accessorie that you created yourself.

That's what I said. Impossible http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[cdsboy]

Well, its still cheating to make a special button to glitch the game...

[Amnesia]

if you press left AND right together, link does this. impossible on a super nes)


I succeed to do that when you want with the real snes and only with the official pad, I will ask a friend if he can record me with the consol if you want..But I've reached the end only one time in 4min but I don't understand how I did..I think I can do it another time..


http://www.arcadehits.net/forum/index.p ... topic=2562 (http://www.arcadehits.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2562)


Here I've tried to explain the manip with 2 screenshoot..

[PetitPrince]

Well, its still cheating to make a special button to glitch the game...
Since nothing in the game data was changed, I do not consider this to be cheating. Well, it's still kinda lame, like playing a shooter game (Time Crisis, House of the Dead) while holding the gun at an absurdly close distance of the screen, but that's not really cheating. Speedrunners want to show the fastest theorical way to finish a game, without hacking it. Think about Rocket Jumping in Quake, Jet-Skiing in Starsiege Tribes or Snaking in MKDS: that's perhaps not the way the game designer wants the players to play the game, but it's still an possibility. [/quote]
EDIT: strange, the forum says that my message may be well... suspicious if I don't put the "[/quote]" at the end...