Arcade joysticks

[umbrellastyle]

Does anyone know the type of joystick that is used in Tetris arcade machines in Japan?


I play a lot of fighting games, so I know the types of Japanese sticks, and my guess would be that a Seimitsu would probably work best because of it's short throw. I imagine the longer throw of a Sanwa would make it harder to play at higher speeds.


But hell, they might use a stick that isn't popular at all, so does anyone know anything about it?

[sihumchai]

I too wanted to make a thread about joysticks. I want a really simple one with a huge round handle, and fat round buttons. Smooth and all.. able to withstand the most hardcore button mashing.


USB right? Here in Malaysia it's rare to find a good one.. Was thinking of purchasing online. I might be getting a 360 for TGM, and must get a 360 compatible joystick http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

Hey umbrella, can you show me a few? Links perhaps.

[K]

as a old arcade fighting game player, i always prefer to use arcade stick as often as possible instead of cross or "keyboard".

you can get information about the best choice here (in japanese):

http://www13.plala.or.jp/TETRiS_TGM/kouza/13.htm

maybe somebody around can translate you a part of the bottom document. it is related to the brand you quoted.


personnaly i'm using a HORI PS2 Tekken 4 arcade stick (modified to 4 direction limitation) for Jamma and PC, and a DOA X360 arcade stick for PC...

[colour_thief]

Mine is a custom stick I made myself. It uses Seimitsu sticks and buttons. Well, I cheaped out on the P1/P2 start buttons and used American parts, but those aren't important. Here are some pictures:


<a href="http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wip26bd.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2663/wip26bd.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=joystick9hs.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6381/joystick9hs.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=joystick27el.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/693/joystick27el.th.jpg" border="0"></a>


Here's a translation (not my own) of that Japanese page discussing different joysticks:


That page basically explains the differences between Seimitsu (left) and Sanwa (right) sticks, as well as their guides. The 4-directional guide in Sanwa sticks are shaped like rounded squares, so the stick can rotate smoothly. In contrast, the 4-directional guide for Seimitsu sticks are shaped kinda like a puffy cloud, so you can sense a slight bump while rotating the stick in a circle. It is considered that zangi-moves are easier on Sanwa sticks since there are no bumps in the guide. However, guides on Seimitsu sticks will eventually wear out to become more smooth

On the other hand, since Sanwa sticks tend to have a greater throw, it tends more to bounce back in the opposite direction when you let go of the stick. What was meant to be processed as Right, Neutral, Right, Neutral may be interpreted by the game as Right Left Right Left due to the recoil of the stick. In either stick, the guide should be set to 4-direction mode, since in 8-direction mode the stick will have higher priority on horizontal movement than vertical.


To regurgitate:

-It is important to use a stick's 4-way guide.

-Sanwa sticks can be bad not because of the throw, but rather the recoil the throw can cause. Assuming the correct amount of spring and a little practice, this shouldn't be a problem.

-Semitsu stick have a guide that makes zangi-moves a little more difficult. This will wear with time allowing for more fluid movement.


Or basically they are both good sticks. Though people seem to prefer Sanwa I've noticed. I've only used Seimitsu so I can't offer a direct comparison.


About getting a joystick on the X360... The solution I've seen done is to get the official DOA4 stick and then hack it. I'm not sure what parts are inside it, but you'll at least want to install a 4-way guide.


EDIT:

Here I quickly made a picture to better show the difference between Sanwa and Seimitsu joystick guides.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2199/guidepr0.png

[sihumchai]

Damn, how do I get myself one of those? (refering to CT's homemade joystick).. Where'd you get the parts? And roughly how much did you spend?


And why would horizontal movements affect gameplay? Is it because it sometimes registers hard drops? I get that on my SideWinder alot, lol.

[colour_thief]

Well, without the 4-way guide, Up might become Up+Right. You get lots of accidental button combinations. I played a bit using the 8-way guide and this is very frustrating. With the 4-way guide such misdrops become rare.


I bought my parts from Himura Amusements, and I highly recommend them. I got free Japanese candy with my order! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
http://www.himuragames.com/home.php

[umbrellastyle]

I also have a custom joystick I built, but it was built for fighting games. It works alright for Tetris, but I need to get a 4-way restrictor for it, I think.


Sanwa stick and buttons, also ordered from Himura Games.


http://www.ekvetch.com/joystick.jpg

(picture is pretty big, so I linked it instead of inlining it)


I'm thinking about building another stick just for Tetris, but using Seimitsu parts instead, because I don't really like how the Sanwa feels while playing Tetris.

[colour_thief]

Nice stick!


If you do end up making a Seimitsu stick, be sure to temporarily change the guide on your Sanwa so that you can play them both and give us a comparison.

[umbrellastyle]

Thanks! It's the fourth stick that I've built so far. You don't even want to see the first one. XD


I'm planning on ordering some Seimitsu parts tomorrow, so I'll go ahead and order a Sanwa 4-way restrictor as well. I'll give everybody an update when the parts get here.


EDIT: What's the typical button layout for arcade Tetris? Three arched buttons? I'm picturing the stick I have right now minus the bottom row.


EDIT2: But wait, then where's the hold button? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

[colour_thief]

Seimitsu's sticks come with all the guides... It's strange that Sanwa's don't.


Hold is accessed with the thumb. The layout is more or less like my controller, except the Start button should be a Hold button instead.


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7310/333gj2.jpg

(...the fact that such a place exists on Earth makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside...)

[umbrellastyle]

Great, looks like I can use the Japanese SF template, just don't drill the two plugged holes. Hell, I might just drill all six just in case I ever want a Seimitsu SF stick. haha


And I wish I knew about TGM series when I was in Japan last year, because I remember an arcade that looked just like that with about 3-4 machines of it. Of course, I don't remember if it was the first, second or third game, because I was too busy playing SF. Oops. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[sihumchai]

Okay, thanks CT.


You guys are REALLY REALLY making me jealous.


So you'll have to get the stick, buttons, wirings.. and that's it? How are the wires used/plugged into the CPU? USB? Gamepad type port?


I'll pay you big bucks if you make one for me http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif (kidding, and serious at the same time)

[K]

yop,


http://www.the-shell.net/blog/images/Picture%20001.jpg

since we are talking about Arcade stick, i plan to buy a real and reliable 4 limited directionnal stick, instead of a custom one...

i see the himura webpage, it is interesting...

i definitively choose the SANWA JLF-TP-8Y !


does the limitation plate is shipped with the stick ? i see one but can it be "turned" ?

[tepples]

Has anybody tried it with an 8-way joystick plus a few logic gates on the wires out of the control to return signals for no direction pressed if two directions are pressed on the joystick?

[colour_thief]

Then you would occasionally get nothing when you pressed Down (and were a little off). So you would think your piece was locked but it wouldn't be, and when you prepared your DAS for the next piece you'd ruin your placement.


There are actually true 4-way joysticks, though they are somewhat uncommon these days which is probably why they're not widely used. They were big when pac-man was king but not so much these days. My limited experience with vintage arcade games doesn't exactly make me want to use a true 4-way... Perhaps the machines were just poorly maintained but I've never used one that felt very good for rapid pokes and circle motions like TGM requires.

Can you guys explain to me how you USE these arcade joysticks? and what you need?


From Jago's setup I understand it runs on the game board itself.. But.. how in the world?!


Is there a guide somewhere? Or just a simple explanation from you guys?

Oh sorry, the above was me.


-sihumchai, too lazy to log in from excitement.

[tepples]

There is a standard connector between these arcade game boards and the cabinet hardware. This connector is called the "JAMMA connector". It carries input signals from the joystick assembly to the game board and carries audio and video signals out.

Ah..


So it MUST be used with gameboards + hardware ey?.. Sorry, don't know anything about setting up arcade cabinets..


And too bad I'm poor for that.. Looks like I gotta get the DOA joystick + USB converter to play then http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif

[colour_thief]

Yeah, arcade games generally obey a JAMMA standard. Certain pins on the JAMMA connector have standard functions. By connecting the controls to their corresponding pin, you can have a joystick that simply works with every JAMMA arcade game.


Now, JAMMA only covers joystick + 3 buttons. All other extra inputs (eg. fighting games or TGM3's Hold button) are non standard, and you may have to rewire things when changing games. The game's manual should make this clear at any rate.


You're probably talking about using it on a computer though. I've actually never done that... But you'd want to use the serial port to reduce input lag. I know Jago has done this, maybe he can explain how. As for consoles... Every console handles input differently for the most part, so the easiest thing to do is to get a cheap controller and then hack your joystick into it. This can get tricky though, and again I've never done it.


There's a million links out there on this sort of stuff, but this is one I like:

http://chadsarcade.co.uk/oldsite/Supergun/supergunIndex.htm

[umbrellastyle]

I learned everything I needed to know about making arcade controls from http://www.arcadecontrols.com (http://www.arcadecontrols.com/default.htm). Excellent website.


My sticks go to a PS1 DS controller, and to my computer through a USB converter. If you decide to go this route, be sure to use an official PS controller, else there will be input lag through the converter.

OK,


How exactly do you obtain the 'hardware' for running the game board?


Or is the game board the hardware itself? I've always thought the game board, and hardware were two different things, and if you would like to change a game, you just change the wiring to the next game board.


Wow, I really sound like an uber-n00b here.. But it's really really interesting and I don't mind cashing out for all the things I need to build me one of those babies http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[umbrellastyle]

A Supergun is something you plug the game board into. You would need to buy a Supergun, the game board, and joysticks if they weren't included with your SG.


As for where to get these, I don't really know of the best place. Ebay would be a good start.


If you're looking to build your own SG, the site that colour_thief posted is probably the best one.

http://chadsarcade.co.uk/oldsite/Superg ... nIndex.htm (http://chadsarcade.co.uk/oldsite/Supergun/supergunIndex.htm)

So the SuperGun IS like the 'hardware' itself..


I thought it was 'like' Sega's Linderberg running different games like House of the Dead 4, Virtua Tennis 3, and etc. etc.


I recall there was a link for TGM1 gameboard over the the JP Ebay.. Seems 'reasonably' priced, and WAS tempted to get it.. I'll have to think about this and get a soldering pro to do up the wiring for me..


I'm googling up Ebay US "supergun" and wow, I found it.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Arcade-supergun-mot ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Arcade-supergun-motherboard-for-JAMMA-classics_W0QQitemZ260010895056QQihZ016QQcategoryZ5 75QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ARCADE-SUPERGUN-FOR ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ARCADE-SUPERGUN-FOR-JAMMA-ARCADE-PCBS_W0QQitemZ150012796348QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3945Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


Such a tiny unit to run the game board. So buy game, hook up to board, hook everything else TV/monitor, and we're ready to jam yeah?


How exactly do you obtain games? I thought you need a license for that or something.. Or like from an official distrubutor.. And roughly, how much?


Thanks guys, great info http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

-sihumchai

[tepples]

How exactly do you obtain the 'hardware' for running the game board?
By buying an old arcade cabinet, removing its game board, and inserting your game's board.

Or is the game board the hardware itself? I've always thought the game board, and hardware were two different things, and if you would like to change a game, you just change the wiring to the next game board.

Pretend that each arcade game board is a separate console. Many of these can play only one game, but a few (Neo-Geo, Capcom Play System) can play multiple games from cartridges.


Supergun seems to be an adapter to use JAMMA arcade boards with more widely available consumer hardware.


As for game pricing: It varies. Just about everywhere that doesn't ban video games outright *cough*Greece*cough*, you can buy a lawfully made game board on eBay and then run it privately on free play mode. In some (not all) countries, you may need to buy a separate license to connect your game to a coin slot; in others, this license to publicly perform is attached to the game board.


And please convert your eBay URLs to use the [url=] syntax. Otherwise, you're widening the board.

[sihumchai]

Aw man, sorry, I can't edit the post.


Anyways, I think it's damn cool to set up an 'arcade' over at your home theater. Just a little box with a game board on top of it, now that's pretty f%@#$ cool man.


I don't really understand the "how to build a Supergun" site. Especially the part on "what you roughly need".. Looks like I'll have to get one over from Ebay, and see what I can do about it.. Not too soon tho'..


*huge sigh*


Maybe if I'm really lazy, I'd have to save up some huge cash for an arcade cabinet and the game board. Now that would suck.

[K]

What american people call a "Supergun" is "just" a power supply unit with basic bridge input to the monitor and controller.


JAMMA is an acronym for "Japanese Amusement Machine Manufacturers' Association" and is a 80's connectic unified standard for Arcade game ... it should me more appropriate to call it an "arcade JAMMA system"...


Anyway there is no strong hardware inside, and this is why you can find lot of scheme for easy and personnal build...


The Real Hardware is on the game PCB :

Not designed for large public sell, they don't have box protection (or rarely) and produced in very limited quantities.


the real value is not the supergun, but the game PCB itself

cause each piece is like a "collector item"... really difficult to find, and near impossible to repair...

[sihumchai]

Well, do you guys actually know where to find purchases of TGM1/2/3 PCBs(and others maybe)? Maybe it comes in bulk sales from a specific distributor?


TGM3 uses different hardware? Not JAMMA? Or rather, a slightly modded JAMMA to include 4-buttons?


We're already off-topic, maybe CT could split these posts.

[colour_thief]

They're related enough to keep together I think, at least for now.


Like Jago said, there's nothing too much inside the supergun. Power supply, speaker, video converter, and joysticks. And fuses for safety. I chose to build my own because a lot of them are set up for European TVs for some reason. Also, I didn't want to pay for bad joysticks.


<a href="http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bottom2kc.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2397/bottom2kc.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top9an.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1936/top9an.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=innards5ft.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/6906/innards5ft.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outtards5ng.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1244/outtards5ng.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=connections7wj.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5516/connections7wj.th.jpg" border="0"></a>

<a href="http://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen7rw.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/4430/screen7rw.th.jpg" border="0"></a>


As for buying the games, your only option is Japanese PCB shops (they deal in used games) or Japanese auction sites. The only game you could get from a distributor would be the latest (TGM3) and it would cost a crazy amount of money to buy it new.

[umbrellastyle]

The free, but illegal, alternative to a Supergun is emulation. Not sure on the rules of discussing emulators/roms on this forum though, so all I will say is that there are roms for TGM, TGM2, and TGM2+ out there somewhere.

Good luck finding them if you decide to go this route.

[colour_thief]

Unfortunately even with the best case scenario of using a serial port with your controller, there is lag present in emulation. It shouldn't be of concern to you right now (I couldn't feel it until well after I became Gm), but it eventually becomes quite noticeable. It's hard to do a good time attack when your reaction time is being artificially increased by a few frames.


This issue is actually my greatest concern of MAME. Slight lag is harmless in Pac-Man, but it really hits TGM hard. I guess it would affect any game played seriously... It's just that, say, Death Mode isn't actually intended to be played any other way. In a hypothetical distant future TGM games could become practically extinct... And laggy emulation wouldn't be able to preserve the true experience. Ah well, hopefully they'll resolve the issue before then.

[tepples]

A properly wired bidi parallel port is guaranteed lag-free on a real-time operating system, but PC makers have lately skimped on parallel ports, thinking that they would be used primarily to drive printers.

[umbrellastyle]

Suprisingly, I don't get any input lag from my PS1 -> USB connection. I'm a Street Fighter fanatic, and 1 frame links and cancels become a necessity in high level play, but I have no problem pulling them off with the same timing as I use in arcades.

[colour_thief]

Native software should be pretty responsive... It's the actual emulation that's responsible for the lag somehow. I'm not entirely sure of the technical reasons but there's a nice thread <A HREF="http://www.bannister.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=36;t=000059">here</A>.


Here's some averaged reactions times measured with different setups:

189ms   Video, NES on TV
194ms   Video, NES on video capture
227ms   Video, emulator using custom serial joypad
236ms   Video, emulator using keyboard
254ms   Video, emulator using keyboard, vsync enabled
231ms   Video, emulator using custom serial joypad, vsync enabled

Obviously that's not concrete proof, but the largest gap between actual hardware and emulation was 65 ms, or about a 4 frame lag.

[umbrellastyle]

Ah. Well then, I must admit defeat. haha Doesn't explain how I am just as consistent on computer as arcade, but it does make sense.


So the emulation route has a drawback. It is still probably the most practical option for most people...