The secret of the consistency

[Amnesia]

If I had to be honnest, and had to write my score for one session in sudden ti, or death that would give this :

289 - 23 - 67 - 505 - 34 - 75 - 189 - 22...

This is tipically the session of someone who are no consistent..This is my case, few months ago, I have been so complexed and jealous by the speed of DIGITAL that I had let myself be seducted by the dark side of the force...During the following months I have been obseded by my speed and nothing else, ignoring the alarming recommendation of c_t and jago, because I was sure to crush them thanks to a good speed improvement..
Today I can assume that I improved my top speed from 2,2 to 3,2 between last summer and today..Which is not useless ! but the only one thing it gives me today is the ability to make (1 run / 50) a wonderfull sudden ti 300-500, faster than c_t, kotetsu and digital (compared to his best torikan), but it is useless if I die under 510 with that..And the worst : it is cinematicaly faster seeing the game, but actually slower regarding the section times..c_t's citation :
"these current speeds are an illusion.."

so I tried to apply every advices ;
-going for tetrises ? I can do it even for sudden ti 300-500 (if we neglect that I do it 1/50 run...)
-playing carefully ? The result are the same, my performance are totaly undependant to my way for playing, for both bursting or taking care of my game..
-never drop the game after a missdrop and try to correct every mistakes ? Sorry but I can not, it is stronger than me, and I perfectly know how to correct the worst mistakes with subtiles moves.

So where is the problem ??

[Rosti LFC]

When you screw up early on do you continue playing or do you just give up?

Also, if you're pushing hard for every game your consistency won't be nearly as high as if you're playing at a comfortable pace.

[Amnesia]

If I missdrop under level....~80, I drop the game
and I must admit that I am pushing to beat my 0-300 or 0-500 99% of the time

[colour_thief]

It makes me very happy that you are finally admitting this problem. Let me tell you that when you develop consistency there is an incredible joy that comes from each and every game. I know you occasionally get thoughts to quit Tetris... But when you are consistent this never happens. The pleasure of the game is simply too great. Now before I talk more about consistency, I interrupt this post for a word from our sponsors:




Go buy a real stick immediately!!!
Seriously Amnesia you have long outgrown the child's toy you play with. Why have you not bought a good stick yet? I think you simply don't realise how much this handicaps you. Is it a money problem? I will gladly lend you money to buy a stick if that's the only issue. But otherwise, it's completely ridiculous to continue with your Gamester.




Let me start by telling you that presently I am incapable of clearing Sudden Ti 1200-1300 in Texmaster. I could play 100 games and fail all of them, with an average of 0.5 lines. However, after a one month break into TGM1, when I came back to Shirase I was able to get S5 S5 S5 etc, always within 5 seconds of the torikan. When I reached my first S10, I trained for the first time in Texmaster in various ways. Starting at 500, 600, 1000, locking hard, not locking at all, whatever. I gave it a good effort, playing several hours over several days, but I felt it was very poor quality practice. I was improving slower than I would be by simply playing the game naturally on my cabinet. Let me explain how I play:

0-500:
I play for tetrises, and for speed. However, when I say I play for speed, I mean I play at the edge of my comfort. It's very important to know where to draw the line, because when you play faster than this subtle limit your decisions start to become stupid. In fact: survival is the greatest priority of all. When I am uncomfortable with my stack, I slow down slightly and my focus is then to resolve the problem as efficiently as possible.

300-500:
I keep playing like I mentioned, but this part is where I get my best speed practice. These are typically the fastest sections of my games.

500+:
Right now this is slightly slower than my range of comfortable speeds. I will lock a little right now, but since it is difficult to lock "just a little" I mostly end up not locking. So right now I play this part for tetrises and survival, but not for speed very much. I imagine within 6 months as my speed naturally develops, I will be able to lock 500-1000 and they will become my new fastest sections. But for now I know my limits.

So, while everything is practiced everywhere in theory, I get the best practice for tetrises in the beginning, speed in the middle, and then survival 500+. If I were practicing in Texmaster always at my extreme limit, I would be beyond my comfort zone and I would never have the opportunity to practice tetrises or survival properly. It would be raw speed without the decision making such speeds deserve. I feel that, by playing the way I described above, I'm making the best progress and soon I will get 1000+ every session. In fact yesterday my 3 best plays (90 minute session) were: ~1100, ~950, ~850.

Here are my recommendations for you:
-Buy a real stick.
-Play Sakura Eternal Heart for a week to master the different feel of the stick.

And then when you are ready for a proper tetris game again:
-Be prepared to temporarily reduce your speed. You cannot truly handle the speeds you're playing, it's an illusion. It is painful to say goodbye to this speed, but remember that within 6 months it will return 100x stronger than before.
-USE HOLD, this is essential and it doesn't slow you down when you are well practiced. It will take months for it to become fully natural at higher speeds.
-Stop suiciding your games. I've seen you play and you definitely don't recover in the most efficient way (using Hold etc).
-Tetris Tetris Tetorisu! Remember that most of my 500+ Shirase games are SK gold. I'd much rather have this than a tiny 10 second advantage passing the torikan.

In summary: Make sweet sweet love to the game instead of raping it. You'll enjoy it more, too.

[K]

you moron !

1 ) start TGM1
2 ) do 10 consecutive run
3 ) tell me how many time you get Gm
4 ) and realise where is your stupidity

[Amnesia]

Yesterday I tried to apply few advices, like reducing my speed by 5% for example,and try to keep surviving instead of good manual locking rythm..
I did a M6 and died at 910..Which is encouraging.
The stick is not a problem of money, it is a big object, hard to find (if you find a link right now, I would be tempted to order it at the instant..), I know that I will change of home, and maybe travel somewhere I ignore for my job, in these conditions, it is hard to tke the decision..This stick will requiert 10% of the space of my luggage when I will leave in 2 months..

then, I would insist on this fact a last time (promised), the M6 I did yesterday looked much less agressive, powerfull and confident that the M8 at 6:22 I performed in August (5 months ago!), following the dark side of the force. and I can also regret the many m8,m9 and few M I did on haboris in sub-6..

Otherwise, I also tried few sudden ti with HOLD, it is a disaster, I can play as fast for 0-300, but I am hesitating and not confident over 300, only because I think about the hold..So I still can break the TORIKAN, but it is less impressive than if I burst without hold..

But I promise, I will do my best to radicaly change my way of playing. I thing I gained enough speed now these last months..Maybe the efficiency of this speed is an illusion, but the speed itself is not and should be a bit usefull for the future.

Jago, if I play like I use to do (looking for a new best), I won't perform more than 1 / 10 Gm
but if I play carefully, I bet for minimum 6 / 10.

[K]

don't bet do it ! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif
i'm sure 6 is even too much for you

[Amnesia]

OK

I won't lie. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[PetitPrince]

How about making an homemade, slim & lite custom stick ? (or just mod your current one to have Sanwa stuff & a heavy bottom)

[Amnesia]

jago, tu me suces si j'arrive à en faire 8 ? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[Rosti LFC]

I'm pretty sure that if I didn't push for time at all I could get at least 8 or 9 Gm runs in ten attempts.

[colour_thief]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I could get 10 if I really wanted to. Even one-handed.

jago, will you suck my dick if succeed 8 times ? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

I find it interesting that I write a big post and you are attracted by Jago's tiny 4 line "advice" that can be done in one afternoon. I don't think 10 games of TGM1 will change anything... It'll only show you how inconsistent you are. The real problem can't be solved in one sitting, though it can be solved with just a few months. The best thing you can do is change your immediate goals from stuff like "i want to reach level xxx" or "i want to break the torikan within x:xx:xx" and instead have a goal like "i want to use hold like the grandmasters" and "i want as many SK gold's in one session as possible". It's ironic, but you'll reach higher levels faster by ignoring levels as your goal.

[KevinDDR]

See, in my situation I seem to have the opposite problem regarding hold usage. I want to use it like the grandmasters, but I am using it too much! Take away my hold, and it'd be like taking away a cane from a blind person. I guess I need to do the opposite then. However, it still requires the same TAP and TGM1 training...hopefully I can learn from this stupid mistake in my playstyle.

[Rosti LFC]

See, in my situation I seem to have the opposite problem regarding hold usage. I want to use it like the grandmasters, but I am using it too much! Take away my hold, and it'd be like taking away a cane from a blind person. I guess I need to do the opposite then. However, it still requires the same TAP and TGM1 training...hopefully I can learn from this stupid mistake in my playstyle.
I think the likes of yourself and a few others who have probably concentrated a little too much on Ti could do with the practice of playing TAP or TGM1 for a while, specifically Death, just so that you can improve your weaknesses when you have no hold, wallkicks or extra previews.
Play TAP for a while and you'll feel a lot more proficient and noticeably more comfortable when you go back to Ti. The playing styles are different, but I think being skilled at TAP automatically grants skill at Ti, while the reverse isn't completely true.

[colour_thief]

Kevin I'm not telling to use Hold for the sake of using Hold. The point is to get him to start thinking about piece placements again. As long as his decision making is shallow he's not going to learn and develop as a player. In your case not using Hold might get you to think in new ways I guess, but you're doing ok as you are for now.

The stick is not a problem of money, it is a big object, hard to find (if you find a link right now, I would be tempted to order it at the instant..), I know that I will change of home, and maybe travel somewhere I ignore for my job, in these conditions, it is hard to tke the decision..This stick will requiert 10% of the space of my luggage when I will leave in 2 months..

Amnesia, this is like saying "My laptop is too big, I think I will simply bring a Gameboy with Tetris for my training". Surely an amateur musician would bring his guitar if he moved to another country for a few months. You can bring a stick too, it's not that big.

Somebody post a link to an HRAP3 for sale!

[Amnesia]

In your case not using Hold might get you to think in new ways I guess, but you're doing ok as you are for now.

I have a high estimation for KB, he is a great player, thanks to his potential in SRS and ARS, a double competence which is rare here..
but honnestly, I think that he really has a problem with the HOLD, telling to him that it is ok is not a good advice..
If I had to make a definitive choice, I would prefer to continu on my way without hold than playing so discontinually like him, with a style suggesting that he uses the hold more to profite of an "extra lock delay" than using it to optimize his stacking. Most of people here seems to ignore an important point, the esthetic of the game, and I assume, maybe with a bit of pretention, than my style is much more sweet than his.
A game performed without hold is definitely more interesting, subtile and nicer to watch than a game with the hold.

[Meroigo]

Somebody post a link to an HRAP3 for sale!
White version: http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-5ju ... -2sxw.html (http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-5juo-71-zl-77-1-49-en-84-j-70-2sxw.html)
Original version: http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-5ju ... -2xsu.html (http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-5juo-71-zl-77-e-49-en-15-real+arcade+pro+3-84-j-70-2xsu.html)

[Amnesia]

I really apologize, but I can not prevent myself to think that if I wait, I will finish to get one under 100$..

[Rosti LFC]

I really apologize, but I can not prevent myself to think that if I wait, I will finish to get one under 100$..

I wouldn't be so sure. Don't see why the prices would dip that much. Not that I've been following arcade sticks with much intent, but it'd seem that the more common decision when a better stick gets released is to stop production of the old ones rather than to continue and just slash the price.

[Amnesia]

There is still a lot of fool people unconscious who often sell this kind of material for nothing in cash center shops..Or on ebay.

[Meroigo]

Or are there? Do fool people buy sticks? http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif
I sold my six months old HRAP3 for 1000 SEK (around 118 USD today) excluding shipping. That's not cheap nor expensive, so it's what to expect to pay for it if buying it on the used market. I think... =P

(I'm going to buy the MadCatz Street Fighter IV Fightstick Tournament Edition instead, that's why i sold my HRAP3. =P)

[colour_thief]

Amnesia it's not going to get <$100 ever. This is a niche product and the people who buy it know its value. The price may seem "expensive" but it's actually good value. Think of the hundreds of hours you will use it, and all the time you will save by not needing to maintain it constantly, and all the amazing records you will make that your current stick will not allow.

If your stick is unreliable how can you expect your play to be consistent?

Besides I thought it wasn't a problem of money? I told you before I will buy you a good stick in the worst case... It is completely insane that such a passionate and skillful player as yourself neglects this one essential tool.

(And when I said Kevin is ok, I wasn't saying his style is perfect. I was saying his style is good enough to let him develop into a great player with practice. Whereas your style is more aesthetic but it is also making you stagnate at your current level.)

[muf]

If you want to spend less than $100 (like I did), get an old stick and mod it with USB and Sanwa parts. Saturn sticks often sell for about $20, and then it's about $40 for Sanwa parts to replace whatever dodgy parts the Saturn housing came with. I managed to find a USB gamepad for $9, so rounded up the whole thing would add up to $70. And then you still need to solder everything in yourself.

[m:)]

thats about 30 bucks for the iron, desoldering gear, and soldering gear if you don't have it.
i just modded a stick. fun stuff.. $30 usd for the stick $3/button 60 in parts for me and $40 for the stick i modded.

it's bluetooth..

[Amnesia]

Ok ok, I will buy it, for ~100$ and will be sure that everything will be ok..
Try to understand c_t, I don't want invest in a model at 100$+, and then regret because another model would have been better..So I will stay on the HRAP3.

But it seems that the destiny will prevent me for ever to get a stick, because this week, I am living with 6 euros in the pocket, I have to wait for my new credit card !!

EDIT : got my new credt card, I just wait know few days that my paid falls into my account to order.
Please don't hesitate to gives me any interesting link for ordering in waiting..

[DIGITAL]

The lack of my presence has caused you to place doubt on the speed perspective, Amnesia? One of little faith, you are quick to dismiss what you don't fully understand. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

Sorry for the huge wall of text. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

First off, let's talk about some misconceptions about speed. Speed is not limited to "playing fast." When I say playing fast, I'm referring to the term in the physical sense. It's often the case that people connect speed to playing without thinking. This is untrue. The primary objective of learning to play fast is exactly so that you will have more time to think.

Here's how I would define playing for speed:
1. Improving mental processing
2. Improving mental reaction
3. Improving physical reaction

Next, there seems to be some weird idea that playing for speed does not result in good stacking. From here on out, I will call "good" stacking strategical stacking. Strategical stacking is not limited to building neatly for all tetrises, although that may be the preferable output. This type of stacking can come in the form of really unconventional placements that at first glance, seemingly places the player at a disadvantage. I won't go into details as it's too complicated for me to even explain, but I'll just say that strategical stacking is "playing to win from your perspective".

So how does playing for speed fit into all of this? Let me ask you one thing. How do you improve your speed if you are playing for strategical stacking? It's a simple answer, right? Through repetitive motion, you develop a stronger confidence in your arsenal of techniques (muscle memory) and through patterns of placement, you obtain an intuitive sense of placing tetrominoes in manners that fit with less thinking. Well, if we think about it this way, then can't the same apply to playing for speed? The repetitive nature also applies to playing for speed and thus muscle memory is developed. To make up for a lower developed strategic manner of stacking, speed gives you more time to think and react. If you have more time to think than a strategical player at the same speed, then you can spend that extra time to make an equally wise choice of placement and thus improve your pattern recognition.

The number one reason why speed players often are seen making really messy placements is because they are not slowing down or slowing down enough to think things through. But doesn't slowing down contradict what you are trying to achieve by playing fast? In a way, it does. There are two extreme paths to the goal of perfection.

1. Improving speed before improving strategical stacking
2. Improving strategical stacking before improving speed

You cannot improve one without sacrificing efficiency in the other. If you are playing so fast that you are casting away thoughtful placements, then you will improve the three qualities I listed above but you will not improve strategical stacking. If you think so much at strategically stacking, then you will not have enough time to react to the immediate danger of a speed minimum. By not reaching for an extreme, you can improve both simultaneously. This non extremity is what ct is talking about, not a strategical stacking only point of view. ct emphasized that you should still play at the edge of your comfort in speed. Basically, just slowing down does not mean you are ditching the speed aspect or are supporting only the strategical stacking aspect. What it means is that you are incorporating both, regardless of whichever one you tend to lean towards.

Now, let's talk about consistency. I'm sure you've noticed a lack of consistency when you are concentrating solely on speed. This problem is two-fold.

1. Consistency is inherently lacking in speed.
2. Having the ability to react to a speed does not guarantee survival/efficiency.

For the first problem, there's no other way around it other than to improve your strategical stacking. I am not the pure speed freak that you think I am. Even though I lean more towards speed, I do exert a certain amount of effort to stack strategically.

Adressing the second issue, even if you can react to a speed, if your strategical stacking is below the minimum required, you will still inevitably die. This is true at level 0, level 100, 200, 300, whatever. This means that if you put more focus on speed and reduce your focus on strategical thinking below what is required in any single game (run), you will not be able to survive in a consistent manner. You may wonder how you can survive at level 300+ in Shirase and still manage to die below 300. The minimum amount of strategical thinking required to survive hasn't changed. What has changed is that you have increased your speed limit beyond what you can handle in terms of strategical thinking. Remember the relationship between speed and strategical thinking? The more you focus on one, the more you will decrease the other. In order to get around this limit, you have to increase your base amount of strategical thinking. If you can raise your speed to the max while decreasing your strategical thinking base by the same margin and still have enough to satisfy the minimum strategical thinking requirement, then consistency will be gained. Obviously, just satisfying the minimum is not enough to achieve maximum consistency.

On the other hand, for strategical stacking, if you cannot satisfy the minimum speed requirement, you will obviously not be able to survive. The difference is that you will die consistently. Once the minimum speed surpasses what you can handle, you would need to either degrade your strategical stacking to increase speed or continue stacking in the current manner and die a swift death. That brings me to two more points.

1. Lacking minimum speed = fast death
2. Lacking minimum strategic stacking = fast or slow death

That's why if you lean more towards strategical stacking, you tend to die at a certain range of levels often. If you lean more towards minimum speed, then your death will be inconsistent since lacking strategy doesn't guarantee death. You may die somewhere in level 200 if you're unlucky or you may die somewhere at 800 if you're lucky. What's important to note is that these conditions apply only when you lack one or the other, not if you have less of one than the other.

Finally, let's talk about what path to choose. It doesn't matter as long as you don't focus ONLY on ONE extreme. You CAN integrate training to the extreme into a path distributed between speed and strategical stacking. The advantage of training to an extreme lies in the idea that it will hone that certain trait more quickly. However, you cannot survive on one trait alone. You need both speed and strategical stacking. You can choose to focus on one more than the other but keep in mind that you will eventually have to train the other ability. Training to an extreme helps you on the path to balancing both traits. Hell, you can even train to the extreme on one trait and then vice versa to balance the other skill.

Congrats to whoever read through all that. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[m:)]

read it, great post.

I am one who is trying to improve my speed. i need to, i finally broke 7 min to level 500 in Texmaster special TI

this game kicks my ass, and I'n no where near alot of the players on this board. I took a 15 year hiatus from tetris, and just started again in october. i got on TGM right around the new year.
i can lay tetrises until the speed passes my ability, and my NES days taught me how to skim strategically.

i'm trying to force speed, and then switch back to more strategic playing, so far it is helping me to boost my times.

I've just started clearing TAP levels under 1:30, before i took a break to just force speed I was clearing them around 1:45.
so for me it's been working to force the speed, then slowing down alittle.
when i slow down a little to be strategic I'm faster then i was before because I have pushed my own envelope up a few notches.
the hold piece in texmaster gives me some better power, I started getting cool's this week.


right now I'm that unlucky at 200 lucky at 800 (700) player you described http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[colour_thief]

I can only imagine what it's like for Amnesia... I gave your post 3 slow readings, and I'm genuinely incapable of understanding it. I'm no English major so I don't really know what you should do, except to point out some of the most confusing passages of your post:

strategical
I was going to say this isn't a word but apparently it's a real adjective that means strategic, making is one of the most useless words in existence. It's out of fashion for good reason, so don't use it.

playing to win from your perspective
This makes no sense at all. Who else's perspective are we conceivably winning from?

..."good" stacking strategical stacking. Strategical stacking is...
M-M-M-MONSTER COMBO!!

1. 2. 3. 1. 2. 1. 2. 1. 2.
The first list you used was ok, but the other 3 are just a reflex you're using whenever you want to contrast two things. An actual sentence would better contrast them.

"When I say playing fast, I'm referring to the term in the physical sense."
The word fast is pretty unambiguous. By clarifying a disambiguity that doesn't exist, you manage to make the reader have no clue what you're talking about.

"The primary objective of learning to play fast is exactly so that you will have more time to think."
Playing faster gives you less time to think, period. There is no way you mean what you are saying here. Also this sentence might work when spoken, but it's very awkward when written.


Maybe you should slow down as you write, so as to make every word count. Not unlike how I'm recommending that Amnesia slows down and makes every piece count. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif But seriously though, I'm not trying to be an ass. As far as I can tell what you wanted to say boils down to:

Reflexes and muscle memory alone will not make you a fast, consistent player. I emphasize these aspects more than ct, but strategy should not be neglected. Also, it is possible to strategically make holes or overstack.

If there was anything else in there it's lost on me after 3 slow readings.

[DIGITAL]

I'm no English major either. I'll admit that I was writing it fast because I had something important to do. However, no offense ct, but I think you overanalyze and overlook the simple implied meaning. I don't want to turn this into a grammar, organization, or semantics conversation.

playing to win from your perspective
This makes no sense at all. Who else's perspective are we conceivably winning from?
You're not competing against another perspective. You're competing against the game. Playing to win means to do whatever is conceivable to win. What you have to do to win varies from person to person. Can you honestly tell me there is one perfect way to stack?

1. 2. 3. 1. 2. 1. 2. 1. 2.
The first list you used was ok, but the other 3 are just a reflex you're using whenever you want to contrast two things. An actual sentence would better contrast them.
I disagree. I find them much more direct and easier to read. They also make the wall of text much more manageable.

"When I say playing fast, I'm referring to the term in the physical sense."
The word fast is pretty unambiguous. By clarifying a disambiguity that doesn't exist, you manage to make the reader have no clue what you're talking about.
The simple message I am trying to get across is that physical reaction is not the only aspect of speed. Don't complicate this please. I don't find it that hard to understand with the context around.

"The primary objective of learning to play fast is exactly so that you will have more time to think."
Playing faster gives you less time to think, period. There is no way you mean what you are saying here. Also this sentence might work when spoken, but it's very awkward when written.
It looks like another semantics argument here. Please consider what I said before about how playing fast is not limited to just physical reaction.

Maybe you should slow down as you write, so as to make every word count. Not unlike how I'm recommending that Amnesia slows down and makes every piece count. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif
To be honest, this was kind of offensive. That's all I have to say.

As far as I can tell what you wanted to say boils down to:
Reflexes and muscle memory alone will not make you a fast, consistent player. I emphasize these aspects more than ct, but strategy should not be neglected. Also, it is possible to strategically make holes or overstack.
You managed to butcher my whole post down into a few oversimplified statements. I'm sorry but I'm not going to bother reiterating everything that I've said.

[colour_thief]

I'm no English major either. I'll admit that I was writing it fast because I had something important to do. However, no offense ct, but I think you overanalyze and overlook the simple implied meaning. I don't want to turn this into a grammar, organization, or semantics conversation.

I didn't intend this to be a semantics debate. I honestly can't understand you, and I tried very hard to. I literally spent half an hour reading and re-reading your post because I care about what you have to say. I'm a little disappointed that you interpreted this as a personal attack as I was hoping for you to express your ideas more clearly.

[DIGITAL]

Well, since we resolved the whole coincidental thing on TC, I won't take your previous post personally.

If you sincerely do not understand what I tried to convey, then you can start by asking me more questions. I'm not sure where you're coming from so I can't even imagine where to begin explaining. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif

But please, don't critique me on my grammar, etc. I know my writing is not perfect but at least try to be a bit more understanding and not so satirical.

[ryanheise]

Through repetitive motion, you develop a stronger confidence in your arsenal of techniques (muscle memory) and through patterns of placement, you obtain an intuitive sense of placing tetrominoes in manners that fit with less thinking.

Interesting. I suppose your intuition would also develop away from certain triple spins and synchro moves (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/../wiki/images/thumb/c/c0/Synchro_compil_2.gif/74px-Synchro_compil_2.gif) that don't fit with less time (as opposed to less thinking).

But is there a better way than just letting the intuition develop unaided? E.g. Can we develop software to help train a better intuitions?

[Amnesia]

ok, just to be sure :

Is it really shitty ?

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7343/dscf0731rt8.jpg

[K]

don't trust the box picture.... the game experience will probably be something like that

http://home.pages.at/mircosoft/Joystick.JPG


un truc de tapette quoi http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif

[Quad]

ok, just to be sure :

Is it really shitty ?

The ball looks too big, and you never know what's inside of that thing.

[Meroigo]

>___<

[Amnesia]

thanks for both of you DIGITAL and c_t, I read everything, and have to admit that it was complexe to get the whole meaning, then I am not skilled enough in english to judge the quality of the explanation you did DIGITAL..You still need to be a bit more synthetic maybe. But I still understood lot of thing. The conclusion I could keep is that I must not reject the pure speed or the pure strategical stacking, but managing intelligently and balancely both of them will bring me the best improvement.
I am not sure, but it seems evident for me that you have not been as consistent as you are today DIGITAL, I am pretty sure that you passed by the same pb than me in the past, and I am interesting to understand how you and c_t have solve this problem, even if your two opinion are differents.

I am sure that the pure speed would allow me to get SHIRASE 1300, and c_t will stayed blocked if he continus to think that way, because he doesn't realise how fast it is, but I am also sure DIGITAL that you could not be m8 qualified as c_t with an average time of 5:40..

Anyway, I have been really surprised by the first results of my "10 TGM1 run" punishement yesterday, and will continu to follow the advices of c_t and jago for a while..But for sure, I will go back into the dark side of the force sometimes, to make improve my pure time delay reaction, if I want one day to get SHIRASE 300..The main thing is that I have to balance the two ways you defend..

[jujube]

i think this stick is for space invaders, not tetris.
http://i43.tinypic.com/9bknd0.png

and i really don't see what the big deal about Digital's post is. i didn't find it confusing. i also don't understand the purpose of attacking someone's writing style (choice of words, repetitiveness, sentence/paragraph structure, etc).

[Zaphod77]

TO sum up.

if you are dieing around the same spot every time, it is either because you can't handle either the speed or the mobility restrictions being forced on you by the speed.

If you are loosing at various times, then you need to improve your stacking, until you start dieing at the same spot every time, at which point you need to switch back to improving speed.

[colour_thief]

and i really don't see what the big deal about Digital's post is. i didn't find it confusing. i also don't understand the purpose of attacking someone's writing style (choice of words, repetitiveness, sentence/paragraph structure, etc).

I'm not attacking him. I made an genuine attempt to read it, and found that it was poorly written and unclear. If I wrote something that didn't make any sense I would want people to tell me. Just like how I appreciated being told how much better I could be using hold in the Shirase thread yesterday. It's like telling someone their fly is undone or they have chocolate on the side of their face. Do you guys really want me to smile and nod and pretend I understand? To develop as a community it's important to actually discuss this sort of stuff and exchange ideas.

If it's so clear to everyone else, then for starters someone explain to me how playing faster gives you more time to think.

[Zaphod77]

What he meant is when you can handle the speed, and no longer have to think about how to get the piece where you want it to go, then you have more time to think about where you want to put it.

[ryanheise]

I'm not attacking him.

My impression was that your language was attacking. Here are my main reasons:

1. You used superlatives to make your post sound more negative than it needed to be. For example, "I'm genuinely incapable of understanding it" and "one of the most useless words in existence" and "This makes no sense at all".
2. Your communication was mostly unidirectional, just like an attack tries to be unidirectional. In other words, you fired off a set of negative statements, but your post was not balanced with polite questions that would have allowed a cooperative resolution of any issues you had (your post did have 1 question, but it was not phrased politely).
3. You seemingly tried to pile on more negative points so that you would have some sort of critical mass to support your view that DIGITAL's post was impossible to understand even after 3 readings. But on closer inspection, 3 out of 6 of the points you made (that's half!) were actually subjective statements on writing style, not examples of impossible sentences to understand. I happen to agree with some of those unnecessary opinions, but they were not a necessary part of your communication, and only served to make it sound more negative than it really needed to be.

I think you could make your language sound more cooperative and less attacking by completely dropping your subjective comments about writing style, and then, rather than using superlatives to point out all of the sentences that you think were written so badly that you couldn't possibly understand them, try instead to ask polite and directed questions about the specific sentences you would like him to clarify.

If I wrote something that didn't make any sense I would want people to tell me

I actually think you have a talent for communicating clearly.

[DIGITAL]

But is there a better way than just letting the intuition develop unaided? E.g. Can we develop software to help train a better intuitions?
That's an interesting question. I'd say yes. The wiki, this forum, and the community in general are evidence of such a phenomenon. Documentations of strategies on the wiki, discussions on the forum, videos/replays, etc. all become an aid to your intuition. Developing software for such a goal...possible but would you take on such a task?

[colour_thief]

If I'm following what you guys are saying about "intuitions", I'd say there's 2 things that have to happen:

You have to unlearn certain placements that are unfeasible at high speeds. Stuff like double and triple tapping. For that right now you can simply grind a little Death 500. The only way a trainer could improve on that, is letting you get the same sort of practice without the speed prerequisite. This could be accomplished by giving long or infinite lock delay,and forbidding inefficient placements in other ways. For example, after a single tap left or right, the trainer could simply not let you single tap again unless lock delay was reset (DAS would still work).

You must also learn new efficient placements that are typically neglected. Stuff like auto-synchros and DAS finesse. Right now there are wikis, videos, and Sakura mode for learning and practicing these. The only way a trainer could improve on that is with a lot of handcrafted technical drills that would force-feed the moves to you.

What he meant is when you can handle the speed, and no longer have to think about how to get the piece where you want it to go, then you have more time to think about where you want to put it.

Digital, care to confirm this is what you mean? If so, I don't relate to it. I definitely think about piece placements without interruption. This includes thinking about the next piece while I'm placing the current piece. In fact I'd say I'm often thinking about where to place the second preview before the first preview has even entered the screen. Because decision making and movement happen in parallel, sort of like talking while driving a car, movement is done for free. Now, complicated (and therefore slow and rarely practiced) input sequences are not free, but the reduced and polished moveset used by a player who can break the Shirase torikan should be completely automatic.

[DDRKirby(ISQ)]

What he meant is when you can handle the speed, and no longer have to think about how to get the piece where you want it to go, then you have more time to think about where you want to put it.

Digital, care to confirm this is what you mean? If so, I don't relate to it. I definitely think about piece placements without interruption. This includes thinking about the next piece while I'm placing the current piece. In fact I'd say I'm often thinking about where to place the second preview before the first preview has even entered the screen. Because decision making and movement happen in parallel, sort of like talking while driving a car, movement is done for free. Now, complicated (and therefore slow and rarely practiced) input sequences are not free, but the reduced and polished moveset used by a player who can break the Shirase torikan should be completely automatic.

from my experience in speedcubing (and to a lesser extent SSBM) i'm not 100% sure decision making and movement happen in parallel all the time. Ideally it SHOULD, but sometimes you neglect to think ahead because you are too focused on what you are doing at the present moment.

However I would expect strong players (such as yourself) not to have that problem since you're already used to thinking ahead and it's easy.

One way I would put it is this: I can hold an intelligent conversation while playing tetris (/speedcubing/playing ssbm), so it shows that I can think about other things while i do "mindless" placement. However, when I do mindless play like that performance generally suffers because you're not making the smartest decisions. Sometimes even when you -think- you're concentrating on playing, you're really not--at least not in the right way. So it helps me sometimes to consciously direct my focus toward the game.

I'm not sure how relevant this actually is though. XD

ryan heise should know what I'm talking about. This is basically relating to going slow in speedcubing in order to get faster times. somewhat.

unwordy version: movement SHOULD be done for free, but sometimes it isn't!

[tepples]

You have to unlearn certain placements that are unfeasible at high speeds. Stuff like double and triple tapping. For that right now you can simply grind a little Death 500. The only way a trainer could improve on that, is letting you get the same sort of practice without the speed prerequisite. This could be accomplished by giving long or infinite lock delay,and forbidding inefficient placements in other ways. For example, after a single tap left or right, the trainer could simply not let you single tap again unless lock delay was reset (DAS would still work).
You mean something like a 20G version of Baboo from Lockjaw? Baboo applies a movement cost metric, and you have to get the high score while your remaining movement drains to zero. Have you any ideas how to measure the cost of movement in high-speed 20G?

[colour_thief]

I just gave an example in my post I think? Expressly forbid tapping more than once per lock delay reset. That's all it takes really.

[DIGITAL]

What he meant is when you can handle the speed, and no longer have to think about how to get the piece where you want it to go, then you have more time to think about where you want to put it.

Digital, care to confirm this is what you mean? If so, I don't relate to it. I definitely think about piece placements without interruption. This includes thinking about the next piece while I'm placing the current piece. In fact I'd say I'm often thinking about where to place the second preview before the first preview has even entered the screen. Because decision making and movement happen in parallel, sort of like talking while driving a car, movement is done for free. Now, complicated (and therefore slow and rarely practiced) input sequences are not free, but the reduced and polished moveset used by a player who can break the Shirase torikan should be completely automatic.
Zaphod hit the point but I think maybe he overstated it just a bit. I'd say that thinking about where you want to get the piece to go is never completely eliminated but reduced (no matter how small) depending on the speed you can handle. This can be considered as improving your mental processing speed. I'd also like to add that mental and physical reaction contribute to increasing the time you can dedicate to piece placement decisions.

When you say you think about the placements without interruption, which includes thinking ahead, I'd like to argue that the ability to confidently handle the speed (all 3 aspects of speed) enables you to do the former. Decision making and movement can happen in parallel, but there's an extent to this as you pointed out with "complicated" input sequences. Similarly, there are also "complicated" placement decisions that would demand more thought for the following pieces. The reason I put complicated in quotes is because it's an arbitrary (relative/subjective) term.

You said that "complicated" input sequences are not free. If they are not free, then what do they cost? Surely the potential quality of your placement decision has to suffer if you have to devote more time to the input sequence. I don't want to get carried away with this "input sequence" term because it's too specific so I am using it in respect to the 3 aspects of speed.

The "reduced and polished moveset" sounds like another way of saying "less complicated maneuvers." Every maneuver that requires input is complicated to some degree. The only maneuver that is not complicated is the one where you don't press any input. It sounds to me like you are saying that less complicated maneuvers become free once you can handle a certain speed level. If this is so, then why does it become harder when you attempt to tackle a speed level that is higher? I'm trying to say that there is an inverse correlation between speed and strategy. If one goes up, then the potential of the other will go down. Like I said above, the term "complicated" is arbitrary, even when applied to a single player. What can be seen as a maneuver that is easy to perform without much effort can become a chore when you are overwhelmed with thinking about placement decisions. The same applies to less complicated placement decisions that become increasingly harder to think about when the amount of time you are given to make those decisions continues to decrease.

The driving car analogy is flawed. Let's call the quality of the conversation as the "placement decision" and the ability to drive the car as the "input sequence." Therefore, we can consider driving the car to be a "less complicated maneuver." As you increase the quality of your conversation by putting more thought into it, would it not become harder to drive the car? Can you discuss complex theoretical physics (let's assume that this is a "complicated placement decision") or something of the sort and still drive with the same level of competence?

DDRKirby, I just noticed that I managed to repeat what you were saying. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

[ryanheise]

Documentations of strategies on the wiki, discussions on the forum, videos/replays, etc. all become an aid to your intuition. Developing software for such a goal...possible but would you take on such a task?

It's something I'd like to do, although all of the ideas I'm thinking of depend on having a good AI to teach good intuitions. The rules need to be either extracted from a good player, or developed using some computer-scientific method such as genetic programming, simulated annealing or neural networks. Either way, it is not an easy task.

[K]

But is there a better way than just letting the intuition develop unaided? E.g. Can we develop software to help train a better intuitions?
That's an interesting question. I'd say yes. The wiki, this forum, and the community in general are evidence of such a phenomenon. Documentations of strategies on the wiki, discussions on the forum, videos/replays, etc. all become an aid to your intuition. Developing software for such a goal...possible but would you take on such a task?

interesting question as well noticed. imo, documentations of "strategies" on the wiki related to TGM will not help you much. So far i see nothing related to concrete strategy, only stuff barely related to guru mumbo jumbo coding/disassembling.
Sometime i read interesting though on this forum, but still not really concrete. recently i don't have much time to play TGM, and i'm losing faith in this community, just barely enjoying bashing amnesia wich is the wierdest pserson to listen to about TGM.

After turning the M-roll problem upside down again and again, i understood that real strategy is essential... Actually my knowledge is not measurable.
so i started to study the chess board, and was convinced to develop a software tool to enhance intuition. Yeah, such a brainstorming task... that 's i'm still researching and compiling.
knowledge is Power. But light burn eye. and i was very afraid to discover that i know almost nothing about the game.
So, yeah such a task. So much work done, and so much to come, and time needed for learning...

TGM is played with the mind and not with the hands

[DIGITAL]

[interesting question as well noticed. imo, documentations of "strategies" on the wiki related to TGM will not help you much. So far i see nothing related to concrete strategy, only stuff barely related to guru mumbo jumbo coding/disassembling.
Sometime i read interesting though on this forum, but still not really concrete. recently i don't have much time to play TGM, and i'm losing faith in this community, just barely enjoying bashing amnesia wich is the wierdest pserson to listen to about TGM.

After turning the M-roll problem upside down again and again, i understood that real strategy is essential... Actually my knowledge is not measurable.
so i started to study the chess board, and was convinced to develop a software tool to enhance intuition. Yeah, such a brainstorming task... that 's i'm still researching and compiling.
knowledge is Power. But light burn eye. and i was very afraid to discover that i know almost nothing about the game.
So, yeah such a task. So much work done, and so much to come, and time needed for learning...

TGM is played with the mind and not with the hands
You make it sound so depressing in that first paragraph jago. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_mad.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

You're right though. Even with all our combined knowledge, we have not even compiled anything truly concrete. I'm not just referring to TGM style of play but to Tetris strategy in general (and we have a lot of those). It's natural as we are still in our infancy as a community, though I'm sure we can use a better outlet to discuss strategies and whatnot. Years down the line, I'm sure we'll be able to present something worthy.

[mushroom]

don't use trainers

that's the secret to consistency

just play from level 0 always

[colour_thief]

That sounds eerily familiar mushroom... http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[mushroom]

at least it's not a big wall of text

plus I've expressed the importance of playing naturally in irc before this topic

[caffeine]

don't use trainers

that's the secret to consistency

just play from level 0 always

I'd agree with this, but let's take Master Mode for example. For a player who can clear level 999, I'd reckon he needs to spend about half of his TGM time solely playing invisible mode if he aims to get a GM any time soon.

[DIGITAL]

don't use trainers

that's the secret to consistency

just play from level 0 always

I'd agree with this, but let's take Master Mode for example. For a player who can clear level 999, I'd reckon he needs to spend about half of his TGM time solely playing invisible mode if he aims to get a GM any time soon.
Ah but caff, the death is consistent, no? To solely train in invis sounds quite similar to training in speed by starting at that level.

[Rosti LFC]

For consistency don't use trainers. But if you want to improve, I think trainers can help massively. For some people at least - we all learn in different ways.

[caffeine]

What do you mean death is consistent? Speed itself is very scalable, but invisible mode is totally different than the usual game.

Also something that I didn't mention before, don't start over. Never. Someone probably mentioned it higher up in the thread, and if so I'll reiterate. When you quit early, what you're really doing is robbing yourself of improvement. Forcing yourself to play through misdrops and general funkiness will force you to learn how to fix these problems, put more pressure on you not to make them in the future, and educate you in consistency altogether. If I were to make a Tetris game, I'd never put a quick restart or quit button.

For consistency don't use trainers. But if you want to improve, I think trainers can help massively. For some people at least - we all learn in different ways.
The problem comes when people think that trainers are a quick fix. In the end, marathon runners still have to put in the miles every week.

[DIGITAL]

What do you mean death is consistent? Speed itself is very scalable, but invisible mode is totally different than the usual game.
It's really an apples and oranges comparison since invisibility training is totally different to speed training in that they focus on different traits. The ability to play with invisibility is almost like a third trait: memory. Speed and strategy seems to be a lot more related. But I'm willing to bet memory somehow influences these two traits and vice versa, though to identify these influences would probably be very vague with my current understanding. If I had to guess, I would say something along the lines of memory having a positive correlation with both speed and strategy. If memory goes up, the potential of both the other two goes up and vice versa. But if either speed or strategy decreases (not both), something weird happens with memory and I'm not entirely sure how to describe it yet.

My point from before is just saying that the death is still consistent because strategy and speed are both at a level where you can reach 999 and die in the invisible roll with similar results just about every time. It's progressive growth because you will still gradually improve in invisibility (assuming there is a connection between memory and speed/strategy), making it consistent. If we assume that there is such a connection among all three traits of memory, speed, and strategy, wouldn't it reasonable to conclude that training in one influences another?

Let's say Player A just reaches 1200 Shirase and is completely overwhelmed by the speed minimum. He can either start over from 0 until he gets to that point again or he can start at 1200 and train that specifically. Now let's say there is a Player B who just reached the invisible roll and is completely overwhelmed by the memory minimum. He can either start over from 0 until he gets to that point again or he can start at the invisible roll. Using the connections I established above, increasing your potential speed will give you more comfort room for strategy and increasing your potential memory will give you more comfort room for both speed and strategy. I am only noting the similarities (that they both increase the potential of the other traits) and not debating the efficiencies of these two training methods.


Also something that I didn't mention before, don't start over. Never. Someone probably mentioned it higher up in the thread, and if so I'll reiterate. When you quit early, what you're really doing is robbing yourself of improvement. Forcing yourself to play through misdrops and general funkiness will force you to learn how to fix these problems, put more pressure on you not to make them in the future, and educate you in consistency altogether. If I were to make a Tetris game, I'd never put a quick restart or quit button.
I wholeheartedly agree. I never restart unless I'm sure that there is no probability of fixing such problems. It has to be something EXTREMELY catastrophic to the extent where it's blatantly obvious there's no solution. I think that's what leads to many of my videos displaying some new form of mess that I've never dealt with before. But I have to admit, it's become confusing even for me about what is clearly a mess and what is seemingly a messy resolution. I can only imagine how much more confusing it might be for the person watching.

The problem comes when people think that trainers are a quick fix. In the end, marathon runners still have to put in the miles every week.
Just to be sure, I'm not saying that trainers are a quick fix. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

[cyberguile]

man, just buy a shitty rubbish out of function stick (10 bucks) , a new thrustmaster usb pad (10 bucks) and a sanwa stick with tsix seimitsu buttons (you can even buy only three to save a few more bucks)
30 bucks and you got your stick.

and as for consistency, I've improved my best TAP time by 20 seconds in two weeks only by trying to get as many gold SK as possible.

[m:)]

man, just buy a shitty rubbish out of function stick (10 bucks) , a new thrustmaster usb pad (10 bucks) and a sanwa stick with tsix seimitsu buttons (you can even buy only three to save a few more bucks)
30 bucks and you got your stick.



your pricing is off a bit, it's gonna be about 30 for the stick (shipped) and about 23 for 6 (3$ each) buttons shipped. maybe drop 5 bux if they all ship together.
add soldering iron, desoldering iron (only costs a little more then the braid and worth it in the time you save) plus solder.
thats 70 in parts on top of your 10 dollar stick.

I'm trying to be realistic here, i just modded my own stick so these prices are accurate.

[Rosti LFC]

Also add in the time it takes you to do it. Even at minimum wage it'd add up a bit.

Though you can't put a price on love http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[cyberguile]

your pricing is off a bit, it's gonna be about 30 for the stick (shipped) and about 23 for 6 (3$ each) buttons shipped. maybe drop 5 bux if they all ship together.
add soldering iron, desoldering iron (only costs a little more then the braid and worth it in the time you save) plus solder.
thats 70 in parts on top of your 10 dollar stick.
I'm trying to be realistic here, i just modded my own stick so these prices are accurate.

I did mod a stick before buying a vshg and I bought everything in local shops: the broken crappy stick in a cash converter, the thrustmaster pad at "la fnac" and the parts at a video game shop that has arcade stuff and everything cost me 30 euros. If I remember correctly, amnesia lives in paris (I do live in lyon in which you can find far less stuff than in paris) so he should be able to find everything locally in a couple of weeks (he's been playing with his sucky controller for ages so I bet he can wait a couple of weeks to find everything as cheap as possible)

[caffeine]

"a new thrustmaster usb pad (10 bucks)"

There's a gamepad called the "thrustmaster"? lol http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

[muf]

Thrustmaster is a brand that started out selling flight sticks back in the days of flight sims in the nineties, that's what the name refers to.

[TWF]

I bought my HRAP3 new for under $100, I don't know what you guys are talking about.

I also need serious consistency help, but I don't know how to go about it. My 20G play remains unsteady after hundreds and hundreds of games and I don't know what to do...

[Amnesia]

c_t, I restarted from the base. with a radicaly different way than before, now I am playing DEATH mode, and few Master between.
I try to ONLY stack for tetrises until the m rank.
I really well preform it, I often can get 450 with only tetrises from the begining, stacking for tetrises at DEATH 300 is more and more easy after 1 week.
I almost don't lock any more at 400, ONLY if I am under the middle with a clean stack. So everything is good, my average increases, I take more time to well perform each moves..I also slightly optimize some rotations for my L and J..And I take more and more pleasure to play this way..
But the problem is that I almost don't perform any m rank now..I lose very often between 440 and 490, because stacking for tetrises at DEATH 400 pulls my whole energy out..The worst is that I am suffering from the bad effect of the "only Tetris stacking", now it became a naturel reflex so I can not play anymore for safe single and double at the bottom, I feel unconsciously forced to stack for tetrises..

I really wonder if it is a good thing..Will this method bring some result later ?? Or am I doing things wrong ?

Please, I need you to tell me something like :
"continu on this way !! and you will be rewarded later for this hard training."

[Rosti LFC]

I bought my HRAP3 new for under $100, I don't know what you guys are talking about.


Including p&p?

[colour_thief]

I really wonder if it is a good thing..Will this method bring some result later ?? Or am I doing things wrong ?

It sounds like you are making good progress! You will definitely gain consistency if you continue. But do know that playing for tetrises 400+ in Death is more difficult than playing for tetrises 500-1000 in Shirase. Remember what is most important in your consistency trainning: Thinking hard about the best piece placements. Because tetrises 400+ in Death is so advanced, you should maybe make a small compromise and think extra hard about avoiding holes and maintaining stability. You can still play for tetrises there, but you need a different standard than 0-400.

[TWF]

I bought my HRAP3 new for under $100, I don't know what you guys are talking about.


Including p&p?
Shipping brought it over but not by that much.

[Rosti LFC]

See, for me the postage was pretty much equivalent to the base cost of the stick.

[caffeine]

Likewise.

[m:)]

See, for me the postage was pretty much equivalent to the base cost of the stick.

Likewise.


http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

am i reading that rite? 100 + 100?

[Rosti LFC]

See, for me the postage was pretty much equivalent to the base cost of the stick.

Likewise.


http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

am i reading that rite? 100 + 100?

Nah, the stick was about $70 IIRC, and then the postage was a similar amount on top of that. And then I had an additional payment for import tax of about £20 or so.

[caffeine]

My HRAP3 cost $77.71. The shipping was $74.10 with a $6.68 surcharge, but it'll be so worth it when SF4 comes out on PC!

BTW, let's get back on topic. I wanna find out how to get more consistent.

[TWF]

I used to end a lot of games really quickly, especially when I misdrop in the first couple pieces. Now I know that if I misdrop repeatedly I shouldn't be playing http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

I only continue playing when I can perform okay to start off with, because beating myself up over repeated bad starts and 100 second 0-100 times in TAP isn't helping me get better.

[m:)]

I used to end a lot of games really quickly, especially when I misdrop in the first couple pieces. Now I know that if I misdrop repeatedly I shouldn't be playing http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_exclaim.gif

I only continue playing when I can perform okay to start off with, because beating myself up over repeated bad starts and 100 second 0-100 times in TAP isn't helping me get better.


imvho if you're not messing up you're not pushing yourself.

I'm trying to boost my playing speed, and that can mess with solid stacking pretty bad.
I want to get those 0-100 times down to under 60 seconds. In ti style I'm starting getting down to <70 seconds per 100. I'm faster for 100-200 and 200-300

right now i'm constantly slow http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif and bad starts don't help with the speed too much. However, if i mess up the start I know it is because I'm forcing myself to play faster. once I get my muscles working better solid stacking will follow. for me it's a matter of forcing those pieces into place fast.

[DIGITAL]

imvho if you're not messing up you're not pushing yourself.
Hmm, perhaps messing up happens more often when you push yourself to an extreme? It seems to me that you can still push yourself to some degree without having to mess up.

I think Radish has a point about taking a break when you misdrop repeatedly. If you are uncomfortable with performing a certain technique, then it's reasonable to misdrop while you try to learn it. But if you repeatedly misdrop in situations where you definitely know you shouldn't, it might be time to take a break.

[Amnesia]

I use to fall in the vicious circle of :
" RRhhaa !! http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_evil.gifhttp://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_evil.gif I won't stop until.... one last DEATH 400+.."

[m:)]

Hmm, perhaps messing up happens more often when you push yourself to an extreme? It seems to me that you can still push yourself to some degree without having to mess up.

I think Radish has a point about taking a break when you misdrop repeatedly. If you are uncomfortable with performing a certain technique, then it's reasonable to misdrop while you try to learn it. But if you repeatedly misdrop in situations where you definitely know you shouldn't, it might be time to take a break.

I am defiantly speaking of pushing extremes. I am a performance dj and am constantly pushing myself to play better.
There is nothing worse the bombing it with the dance floor packed. you break everyones mood and they all look right at you with the wtf look.
at the same time if you can give a performance that turns heads and drops jaws the feeling is amazing. and the energy rises.
to me it's worth the risk to get that feeling.

in these situations i simply cannot be afraid to train wreak hard. but it happens. so in my practice i push myself as hard as possible. very hard. the result of this is the middle ground moves closer to the extremes and I improve.

the result of training in this manner is that now when I am on the stage i will still push the envelope. when things fall apart all I can do is stand back and shrug. it doesn't bother me because I know I'm pushing myself, and I would rather fail trying the succeed playing safe.

I think this mindset makes it easy to keep my head down and just try harder even if I'm totally fucking up. if you have to perform you simply don't have the option to take a break.

when i mess up I understand it is from pushing so hard, it makes me feel like I am succeeding in bringing my overall ability to a higher level.

if you need a break you need a break, but messing up isn't bad if your pushing yourself.
I have a different way of looking at life then most of people tend to. I'll take a bad situation and look at the positive results instead of letting it get to me.

I think this same scenario applies to tetris.

if you dont fuck up your not pushing yourself hard enough. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif
ideally overtime you'll minimize those mistakes.

the force will come.

[muf]

The secret to consistency is to only play when you're at peak physical and mental performance. Play when you're well rested, and really feel like "hey, I want to play Tetris today!" To illustrate, I feel like this about once a week. If I play only during those times, I reach my optimal consistency, which is my qualified grade +/- 1. An average session when I'm in peak condition:
S3 S4 S4 S3 S4 S5 S3 S3 ... and then I need to stop playing because my performance (and thus consistency) is going down. I might still get a high grade if I keep pushing myself (I do this when I absolutely want to get a qualification exam), but to be honest it's better to quit while ahead. This will also leave you feeling more positive, and give you more motivation and energy for your next session. From what I understand of it, this is loosely in line with Digital's "Break Theory" where long breaks between sessions promote better performance.

[caffeine]

The secret to consistency is to only play when you're at peak physical and mental performance. Play when you're well rested, and really feel like "hey, I want to play Tetris today!" [...] and then I need to stop playing because my performance (and thus consistency) is going down. [...] but to be honest it's better to quit while ahead. This will also leave you feeling more positive, and give you more motivation and energy for your next session. From what I understand of it, this is loosely in line with Digital's "Break Theory" where long breaks between sessions promote better performance.

Sure the quality of the session is really important, but you still need to invest a lot of time every week in order to really improve. Look at professional Korean SC players. To maintain top level of play, they practice ten hours a day. Do you think they're feeling great during all those ten hours? It's an extreme example, but my point is that time-invested is very important in skill development.

[colour_thief]

You're all fools. The secret to consistency is press down, always. None of that pussy left and right and clockwise and counter clockwise crap. That's for inconsistent noobs.
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
etc

[Quad]

You're all fools. The secret to consistency is press down, always. None of that pussy left and right and clockwise and counter clockwise crap. That's for inconsistent noobs.
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
9
etc

Rotation is for da gurlz! Hurr hurr

[DIGITAL]

How about not pressing anything? That way, the time will likely be more consistent too. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[Amnesia]

Extract to show my recent strategy for DEATH 300-500. I am happy to see that I am recovering my good time attack positions (M rank around 3:10) without too much forcing on speed, after 2 weeks of intensive work on my consistence.
This is not to show how consistent I am on many attempt, but just to show the way I am using in order to get more consistency. Actually, my first session yesterday has been 2 m rank for 4 games, with another around 440, and a crappy one under 200 because of a missdrop. The video is an extract from the 4th game.

PS : Thank you Lee_N and DIGITAL for the recorder tool of inp..

PS' : Watch carefully the move with the "L" at lv 599 c_t http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2k4pbtSqoQ

PS'' : here is an example of the same move applied to sub-20G, but really much harder to perform with sonic drop than for DEATH 500 or SHIRASE 600..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-LvbnPVnE

[muf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2k4pbtSqoQ
And people still tell me there's nothing wrong with the I piece in TGM and TAP...

[Amnesia]

ah ha ha..So you noticed how much I paniced to find a solution on the left, I tried 2 times a synchro with a I, but no one worked.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif

EDIT : synchro ? Or 2x tap, rotate, DAS...I am not sure anymore now.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

[Quad]

ah ha ha..So you noticed how much I paniced to find a solution on the left, I tried 2 times a synchro with a I, but no one worked.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif

I usually double tap to do that. It's too hard to try and synch the I piece. Or is this too slow on that level?

[caffeine]

You know, we talk a lot about consistency, but I was thinking, "what is consistency in Tetris"? Does it mean that you stay at the same level of performance? It's good to not do terribly every third game, but wouldn't a consistent player also never improve much? It seems to me that consistency is an easy goal to reach if you just put the minimum effort into every game (consistently bad playing).

I gather you guys must mean you want to consistently play at a high performance level and improve. That sounds good, but is it any better than just "trying hard to play at a high performance level and consequently improving? The difference is that with the second, you can still take risks and make mistakes. You can explore new ideas, and it's okay if they don't work out. If they don't work you'll lose your "consistency," but maybe next time you'll find something that works better than before. See what I'm getting at?

No, I don't think consistency is an important goal in Tetris. The main goal should be improving. If consistency is important, it's only important when you're already at the top skill level and want to stay that way.

[Amnesia]

We don't have more details, but it seems that during the last TGM event in japan, where jago was, the few best player did very successfully some demos on TGM, TAP and TI..we don't know if they playey few attempt or only one, but in the 2 cases, I don't feel able to do such a thing and get so good performance on one session..This a strong example of consistency, zab got two S13 in a limited session..

and ofcourse, no need to get 9/10 time between 80 and 90% of your best performance, but I noticed, with my case, that falling too deep in low consistency can be a real disaster, when I decrease at 4% of my sudden ti run at 300+ (really worst case), I got stressed because of the 96% of failed game, and have some disturbing thought like :
"oh my god, finaly a good one, I must not lose..."

you see the problem..

And a opposite and positive view of this fact can be the one which is happening currently to me, I am increasing my proportion of DEATH 600+ game without beating my old record (789), so I am less nervous, and that is begining to be more and more common to pass 600..in the past, DEATH 600+ was very rare, so I used to get very nervous approaching my record.

[tepples]

ah ha ha..So you noticed how much I paniced to find a solution on the left, I tried 2 times a synchro with a I, but no one worked.. http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_neutral.gif
I usually double tap to do that. It's too hard to try and synch the I piece. Or is this too slow on that level?
A couple pages ago in this very topic, colour_thief said yes, double tapping is too slow in Death and Shirase (http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1344&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=baboo&start=30#p30168).

[Amnesia]

Recently I passed a 2x tap at SHIRASE 1200..
It is possible at every speed, but the mental and physical stress occured by this maneuver increases a lot the probability of failing the placement of the next tetrimino.

[jujube]

If consistency is important, it's only important when you're already at the top skill level and want to stay that way.
and there are few modes in which you can reach a pinnacle. guideline marathon for example (and maybe some of those crazy tetris party modes).

[muf]

No, I don't think consistency is an important goal in Tetris.
Unless you want to increase your qualified grade.

[DIGITAL]

Recently I passed a 2x tap at SHIRASE 1200..
It is possible at every speed, but the mental and physical stress occured by this maneuver increases a lot the probability of failing the placement of the next tetrimino.
Just to add to what Amnesia said, if you are strong enough to plan ahead and to adjust your rhythm on demand, this type of placement easily becomes consistent. That little advantage in mental preparation and reaction makes all the difference. The technique is still not recommended though.

You know, we talk a lot about consistency, but I was thinking, "what is consistency in Tetris"? Does it mean that you stay at the same level of performance? It's good to not do terribly every third game, but wouldn't a consistent player also never improve much?
I think the type of consistency discussed in the last few pages of the thread have been referring to the minimization of the gap between the upper and lower bounds of your performances. To answer your second and third question, I have to make a contradicting point. Players simultaneously aim to be consistent and inconsistent. You cannot become a great player without both. Decreasing consistency by increasing the upper bounds of your ability (therefore, widening the gap between upper and lower bounds), gives you more room to "improve." On the other hand, you can continuously increase the upper bounds of your ability, but if you do not bridge the gap between upper and lower bounds, you will end up having amazing runs mixed in with embarrassing crap.

[Zaphod77]

Well, without consistency, you won't get good qualification exams in TI.

The grade system of TI (and also tap) are designed to require consistency to obtain the rank of grandmaster. It's completely hopeless in TI unless you are actually that consistent.

[Xkeeper]

After giving this thread a complete readthrough, I'm going to take Amnesia's punishment and play 10 no-quit games of TGM to see how I can do. In Texmaster, that is (easier and less laggy)

I abuse the quick restart button too often if I make a bad misdrop or the stack is in bad shape; but at the same time I also tend to play a little bit too agressively in 0-50 and sometimes end up dying with 9 or 8 due to a drought of I pieces...

...

My grade in Special Ti is, excluding aborted games, usually S4~S5 (best S6), and it's fairly constant; I usually die in the same spot.

I'm still missing a lot of the ARS tricks and have really bad stacking behavior in 20G, so... we'll see.

Results tomorrow, after sleeping http://www.tetrisconcept.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[caffeine]

Well, without consistency, you won't get good qualification exams in TI.

The grade system of TI (and also tap) are designed to require consistency to obtain the rank of grandmaster. It's completely hopeless in TI unless you are actually that consistent.

This fits well into what I was saying. At the top level of play (GM), you'd want to be consistent to stay at the top level. At all other levels, you'd really want to improve before becoming consistent.

[m:)]

if i regret at 0-100 i restart every time. but that's the only time.

I agree with caffeine, you have to push yourself to get better and then adjust to the higher level you are trying to achieve.

this is what I am trying to say with "if you don't mess up you're not pushing yourself."

you have to take risks to learn to minimize the resulting danger of such risks.

[Zaphod77]

This fits well into what I was saying. At the top level of play (GM), you'd want to be consistent to stay at the top level. At all other levels, you'd really want to improve before becoming consistent.

FOr TAP it only matters for getting the m-roll.

But the section cool rule demands consistency within the game to even reach the highest levels in the first place in TI, because of the sliding speed curve.